What a Rock Star Knows About Building Lasting Connections
Tai Anderson
(YouTube Transcript)
Aneta (00:03): Tai, welcome to the Live the Width of Your Life podcast.
Tai (00:07): Thank you. It is great to be here with you this morning.
Aneta (00:11): I'm so excited. I do have to say I've been a fan of Third Day for many years. And listening to the songs always takes me back to time in our life when we were young and before I got married and also was newly wed and then with kids and at church. And so thank you for the last 30 years of amazing music that you guys have made.
Tai (00:32): Well yeah, it is my pleasure. It has been a joy to make the music this year, especially our 30th anniversary tour, as we've hit the road, it's been just a joy to celebrate exactly what you were talking about. That it's not just that we made songs and they had whatever level of success, but the stories that people share of the moments in their lives that our music was the soundtrack is really a cool thing. And to see So many people the song they walk down the aisle to or part of a road trip with their family or just so many incredible things, good and hard times, to be able to celebrate that has been really truly special and life-changing for me.
Aneta (01:13): Yeah, so good. Did you always know that you wanted to be in a rock band, a Christian rock band?
Tai (01:21): I don't feel like I had time to figure that out because I started with Third Day when I was 16 years old. So I had already gotten into music. I talked about in the book how I had won this talent show where everyone chose to lip sync. I put together a band. So I already saw the power of live music. And Third Day just came together so organically. It wasn't try-outs, it was really just friendships and
Just hey, we're kind of like the first other musicians we really knew that played the instruments. We formed the band, but just right from the beginning, we had impact and we had connection and people's lives were changed, even when we first started. And that always just propelled us forward. So I think for me, I kind of on one side thought that we created Christian music because I didn't know it was like its own genre.
For me, I grew up and I'm a huge U2 fan. And like even now I'm looking at YouTube posters on my wall. My social media feeds are full of their new album about to drop and announcing a world tour. And so my whole life I've been this U2 fan. Well, U2 has always blended faith and rock and roll. So for me, we were just doing, why sing about anything less?
Than the big things, these big soaring topics are our relationship with God and forgiveness and grace. And so it felt very natural. Once we got started, we realized it really was its own genre. And for us created incredible opportunity, but it also created somewhat of limitations. And that's something I really talk about in the book of that's kind of the same for everybody in whatever they do in life, you're not for everybody, you're for somebody. And really digging into that is really how you really connect. And that's something that we did with the band and just formed enduring relationships.
Aneta (03:08): Yeah, there are so many lessons. I wanna just maybe dive into the book because I think so many of my questions that I have for you are absolutely stories that you talk about in your book. Market like a rock star, stand out, earn trust, and create lifelong fans. And I love that you brought all the lessons and the stories from your time with Third Day, but also then your time working in marketing and advertising. And I finished the entire book. I loved it. And I've so much earmarked here. I think it's for everybody because everybody in any walk of life, whether you own a business or you're maybe at work or you're working on your own personal brand or whatever it is, there's stories and lessons in here. And you do it in a way that is fun because it's tied very much to to music. So can you talk a little bit about the way you structured a book? Because I think that's unique. And I've not seen a book done quite like this.
Tai (04:06): Yeah, I put it in my very first section, I called it tuning up. Like before you go to a concert, it's great to have your instruments in tune. And with that was just sort of creating the right alignment, the right intention, as we talked about before we started today. and what I really said is like the musical metaphor in this book is not just a metaphor, it's the architecture. It's like the very structure of the book. And I gave a disclaimer, if you don't like music, you're gonna hate this book.
Aneta (04:31): Yeah.
Tai (04:31): Like I'll give you a recommendation of five others. But if you do love music, what it provides is this great way to understand these marketing concepts that could otherwise just seem lofty or you'd have to be really specialized to understand. Because in music, when you love music, there's just such this powerful connection. And if you're someone who goes to live concerts, you see that there's this structure of the way things are put together. So the metaphor goes deep. The poll quotes, I call them riffs. I organize them into greatest hits. I don't have a table of contents.
I have a run of show and my whole framework, the rock star set list And then each section, my worksheets are called the sound check. That call to action to go deeper with me with extra videos and stuff is called a backstage pass. So I mean it's just the metaphor really holds up, but more than that, the structure I tried to write it in is I actually developed my own little acronym. So someone other authors out here might really like this. I called it Speak. So I've had the URL for so long, Tai Speak.
And that's what I call my blog, and so just kind of my musings, but speak for me stood for story, principle, example, application, keep going. And that's what I tried to put into every chapter, starting with the story, then really highlighting the principle that kind of the moral the story, but give a real world example for it.
The worksheets giving application of how you can apply it to your own life or business. And then each chapter ends with a bridge, just this little bit of like, here's where we are, but let's keep going into the next chapter. And then I found by, that was the biggest thing I learned as a first-time author that structure, especially for nonfiction, is really your friend. And it's your friend for the reader as well, and you could attest to this, but you read one chapter, by the time you're halfway through the second your mind tells you, here's the structure.
And sometimes you look at a book going, How am I going to finish this? And there's Netflix to watch and things like that. But what I really tried to do with the structure is go very quickly, your brain can kind of unlock the structure and you can go, I can tackle this in two hours, in three hours, instead of some books you just feel like it feels so daunting that you know you abandon it.
40 to 50 pages in. So the fact just to me, what you said to start this podcast that you read it all this weekend, to me is so affirming that it accomplished what I set out to. Cause we've all picked up books where we go, man, this is a dirge. Like this might as well be a school assignment. Can I save it for the night before, right? So that really feels great that you were able to read it quickly and dog ear comments and takeaways and I do feel like there is something for everybody here.
Probably the danger of calling it market like a rock star is someone says, well, if I don't work in marketing, this isn't for me. But I think my whole point is we have to redefine marketing right from the beginning. And if we redefine it not as this function of how do we advertise to strangers or rent attention to try to turn someone into a customer
But how do we truly create fans that are loyal, that keep coming back? Well, that touches just about every person inside of an organization and certainly leadership. So I do feel like the book has lessons for a much broader audience than someone who might call themselves a marketer.
Aneta (07:50): Yeah, and I love that point about we're not just trying to acquire new customers, but we're trying to create this fandom. So can you talk a little bit about what that means to you? Because I remember in one point of the book, you share a story about an executive who was in the room and you guys were at a pivotal point in the career, and some executives maybe were saying, we should cross over, other artists have crossed over, like Amy Grant or
Michael W. Smith or Taylor Swift and then this other executive said something different to you guys. Do you mind relaying that story? Because I thought it was so impactful actually when I read it.
Tai (08:25): Yeah, so your first part of your question about fans, this year we did our 30th anniversary tour and I was like born again again. my interaction with fans was just so life changing for me. And the entire book is this essay on fandom that I really came to believe that fandom is not preference, fandom is identity. Fandom is who we are. And think about the words we use. So important. We don't just say, I like U2 I say, I am a U2 fan. Present u2 fan. Present tense statement of identity. So this fandom thing is a big deal.
And I think there's even a spiritual dimension to it. To identity So there's a great spiritual expression, you don't know who you are till you know whose you are. And despite whatever your religion might be, we all probably trace back to the story of Yahweh showing up at the burning bush to Moses. And what does God say? Moses says, like, he sends them into Pharaoh, and Moses is like, Well, who am I supposed to say that you are? What's your name? And God says, I am that I am. Well, who should I say sent me? Tell him, I am sent you. So this idea of I am.
That we would say that it is so powerful. So it was early in our career, and we were probably our second record. A lot of our label mates and other colleagues in Christian music were crossing over, and they were having success not just on Christian charts, but on mainstream charts.
Aneta (09:52): Yeah.
Tai (09:53): Specifically, Jars of Clay had a big hit in their song Flood. Bob Carlisle had just had a big hit in Butterfly Kisses. We were all in the same record company, the same record company that had broken
Backstreet Boys and InSync, it was Zomba, this huge owned by BMG, this big international conglomerate. And they kind of set their eyes on us and they came to meet with us, and it was all the mainstream record labels from New York and LA, and we sat down in this meeting in Albuquerque, and it was the only time in our career that the main booking agent for CAA Nashville, John Huey.
Who had broken the police and Joanjet and the Black Arts would go on to be Carrie Underwood's booking agent, just a legend in music already, and has continued to back it up since then. He came to this meeting because it was a big deal of like we're gonna take their day and help them cross over. And so they were laying out the plans, and the whole time it kind of felt like that story in the Bible where before Jesus started his ministry.
The devil comes to him and he says, Turn this rock into bread. Or he looks out in the city and says, All of this could be yours, right?
Aneta (10:57): Yeah.
Tai (10:58): You could be the kingdom of this earth. Just give me what I want. There's a great YouTube song about that, Vertigo. So it kind of felt like that in the meeting, but I'm like 19, 20 years old. I'm like, sign me up. I want to be on mainstream radio, I wanna be on the rock stations, I wanna be on the same stations as
Coldplay and the Black Crows and Dave Matthews band and all my favorite bands. And so the meeting was going on with that just message of third day, if you will just maybe dilute the fact that you're a Christian band a little bit, then we can take you to a much broader audience. And so that was the message. I was kind of nodding along until John Huey, this legendary booking agent, stands up and he says, I don't believe in crossover. I believe in spillover. And then in Hollywood fashion, he walks out of the room, like mic drop. He leaves the room, leaving us to figure out a little bit awkward in the room.
The meeting goes on. It probably took us nine months to really figure out what that means and dig into that. But once we did, we realized that man, our path for growth is not going to be about diluting who we are. It's not going to be about chasing breadth. It's going to be about chasing depth.
Of being the best third day we can be, of knowing who we are, who our audience is, and going deep with them. And what we found is when we did that, our fans shared us more than ever. We put out a record called offerings shortly afterwards. And again, even our Christian label didn't even want it to count on the record deal because they're like, it's just a fan record. And I was like, Yeah, this is a fan record.
This is for the fans and it was before worship had become a genre but we had these worshipful moments and we captured it in this half-life record, some new songs. Well that record went on to be our first gold record. Has now sold over two million copies and it lifted up our entire catalog and career by us choosing to have growth from spillover being who we were, not trying to cross over and dilute who we were.
Aneta (13:04): Yeah. And I love how you tie that into a marketing lesson for all of us in the book, which is going a little bit deeper into who you are, not necessarily trying to be someone for everybody. So can you talk a little bit more about the lesson there that maybe all of us can apply to our own business or our own life or our own brand?
Tai (13:23): Yeah, absolutely. The riches are in the niches. I think it just directly applies. I think that's one of those, which would be so honoring and I hope it happens that businesses would write on a whiteboard, spill over, not crossover. Where are we in our marketing trying to chase strangers as opposed to really knowing, if we get technical in marketing, we'll call it an ICP, our ideal client persona. But the best brands know exactly who their audience is. They speak to them, and then other people say, I want to be part of that. I think such a great example for that is Yeti. I like to say Yeti sells the world's most expensive sticker, but it comes with a free cooler. so with Yeti, they market to the niches.
If you're on their mailing list, it's like kayak fishermen and these extreme surfers and rodeo workers and like they market to these niches of who is their audience, these real outdoor and rugged and durability. But the result of that, as they go deep with that audience, is people like me who'd much rather sleep in climate controlled settings than in a tent, and haven't gone camping in years and all these things, but
My house is full of Yeti and I have the sticker on my laptop and the back of my car. And it's become part of who I am. I have Yeti luggage, as I travel with the band, because there's something about me being just a fan of this brand that I would say, I am a Yeti fan. So my point is when you go deep, other people want to be a part of the party. And like the poster back here, Dave Matthews Band, is a great example of that.
Where Dave Matthews band, they haven't had a radio hit since Ants Marching probably in the nineties. But they're still sold out. It used to be called what, the Blossom Center in Cleveland. yeah, that shed out there.
Aneta (15:12): Yeah, we still have blossom, yeah.
Tai (15:14): We played there a few times. I think Dave Matthews band has probably played there forty something times. I mean, but every summer they're there. They go do the shed tour every year and they're sold out.
And it's not because they're having pop radio hits. It's because they've gone so deep with their audience that their audience you gotta come experience this. You gotta grow. And people who are not deadhead types, who are not jam band types, but for that night, they might be a country music fan. They take off their cowboy hat, put on their ball cap and they go enjoy a night of music with Dave Matthews band. I think they're a great example of spillover. not crossover, how they've really not just attracted this success, but they've maintained it and they've had this just incredible longevity because of it.
Aneta (16:01): Yeah, I love that you talked about that in the book too. Cause you talked about going with friends of yours and you've been to a couple of Dave Matthews concerts and what they'd gone to like double digit number. And yeah. Right.
Tai (16:12): Sixty three at the time. Yeah.
Aneta (16:15): And so what is it about certain products or certain bands that would create that kind of desire? The Grateful Dead had a following, like Dave Matthews. There's certain bands where, they tour all the time and people it doesn't matter. they still want to go for the experience or the connection. What have you experienced with those types of bands? What do they create that's different?
Tai (16:39): Yeah, it's a great question. What they create is a culture. And Seth Godin describes culture as people like us do things like this. So, as companies we like to talk about a culture, but what is the insert your company name way? Well, Dave Matthews band, they created a Dave Matthews way where most of the entire music business would say there's concerts where you have to lock up your camera or you can't take photos, or you certainly in the nineties and early two thousands, let's go to war with Napster and Limewire, and you can't record the shows, and we're gonna protect our copyright. Well, Dave Matthews band said, we're gonna intentionally copy the Grateful Dead model. And who wants the live feed from the soundboard to create a great audio recording?
And they created a whole fan culture of sharing those tapes. Of the bespoke concert poster for every single show, which has its own secondary market. Now that's developed into an app for those fan cultures. So what they're really a great example of the principles to take people from customer to fan. It's about what happens after the first sale. So much more than what we typically talk about of marketing that just gets someone in the door for the first time.
Yeah, you're at some level of fandom if you're willing to buy the album or buy a ticket to a show. But you have to create ways to go deeper with your company. And bands do a great job of that. They create the fan club. They have the crews at the end of the year. for Dave Matthews band, there's like the fan pilgrimage to the gorge every summer in Seattle for three or four nights. so you have to create these avenues to go deeper. So for your business, that's you know the upsell, resell, cross sell opportunities where is I'm learning in just in the speaking world and as being an author where it's like, okay, step one, I've written a book and now I'm getting out there to speak for different conferences and different organizations.
So that's one way to go deeper. And then how can I add on that people that this would really resonate? How can I come install this into your company as more of a consulting practice? So it's finding those ways where very few companies just say, hey, I'm just selling this one widget and that's it. so you have to create these avenues for depth, but then you also have to create this horizontal fan culture where yes, you have this intentional, this is the way we do things, but I feel like it's about giving fans ownership of it. Where there's ways to go deeper, but you give sort of this empowerment to fans to share you. Whether it's a reward or just the reward of they just want more people at the party and you mean that so much to them.
So yeah, absolutely organizations can do it as well. I mean, think about there was a time when we all bought our first Apple product, and now I'm like looking at, okay, here's my computer here and my laptop and then my iPad's charging and I got my iPhone up there and my headphone. And for a company that it's easy to dog on, like, gosh, when's the last time they created something new? Is I have my Apple Watch.
But they're kicking something out every six months. It's just these little improvements, but yet they've built this ecosystem where your first purchase is not your last purchase. And then you truly become, as Mac so eloquently, emphasized in their get-a-Mac commercials, it's identity. It becomes the sticker, the Apple sticker on the back of your car to say, I don't know if that's how many devices you have or how many kids you have. but it's also in their commercial so beautifully said, it wasn't I use a Mac or I prefer a Mac, it was I am a Mac. They understand that the things that we're fans of become who we are, it's identity. And so that's what I think is the way that every organization needs to look. How are we doing that? How are we creating a culture where fans are created?
What can we do to take a customer up that ladder of loyalty. And then the ultimate expression of fandom is referral. That's why meeting you, Aneta, you're actually this is such a cool story because the very story you referenced, this is how we got here today. Lenny, who's my kind of cousin by marriage husband, who's this big Dave Matthews fan, I talk about him in the book, I sent him an early copy. He sends it to a friend in banking that he worked with, Kevin, and now he sends it to you, and you have me on your podcast today.
Aneta (20:59): Yeah.
Tai (20:59): And so it's actually even me being here is kind of an illustration of what I'm talking about. We hadn't met each other, but imagine if I had just sent you a blind email, hey Aneta, I've written this book. I'd really love to be on the podcast. Would you consider having me? And I write it up with AI and I hit all the perfect little notes, and it goes right to your spam folder. But the fact that we were introduced by someone you trust. we got right on the phone and we booked this call. And here I get to be on your show.
Aneta (21:29): Immediately. Yeah.
Tai (21:32): If we can turn, so like I'm so grateful for Kevin, I'm so grateful for Lenny, all but it's this real human touch point, and that's what fandom looks like. And hopefully, I do a good job on this. You've read the book that you go, hey.
Aneta (21:44): Yes.
Tai (21:45): I want to go give a review to this on Amazon so other people see it's great. And you know what? I'm gonna order a couple copies and give it to some friends as gifts. Or I'm gonna tell them the magic words we all want for our company is when our fans say, You gotta.
Aneta (21:59): Yeah. Yeah.
Tai (22:00): Very Sophisticated. But think about like I'm coming to Cleveland in a few weeks. We're gonna have the third day show with Toby Mack and Chris Tomlin. Let's say, I wanted to go find a great. place for lunch near the venue. And I could go do a Google search. I could look at Yelp reviews. I could go find all these kinds of things. I'm going to be inundated with hundreds and hundreds of choices. Aneta (22:33): Yeah, exactly.
Tai (22:34): But if you said, Tai, when you're in Cleveland right by the venue, one mile away, you gotta, you gotta go check that out. Well that is exponentially more powerful than any marketing campaign. And that's how I want to grow my book. And that's the kind of businesses that I want to be associated in that sew into that that really understand that's really what it's all about. In this age of AI, how can we have this human connection and where referrals really move the needle?
Aneta (22:57): I agree a hundred percent. And it was so interesting because I talked to Kevin on Friday. He already ordered mail and I got the book by Monday, but he introduced us. You and I connected via email Saturday, and we met Monday. And then we were like, let's book this for a couple of weeks out. Give me time to read the book, et cetera. And it's so powerful when you have those connections. I agree with you, because right now we get inundated with emails, you get inundated with DMs, with people trying to find you but it's so nice still to have a human interaction and connection. And we always want to think about how did we get here? what were those connection points, right? And if someone would have told me like, you're gonna have Tai Anderson on, I'd be like, You're crazy. How would I ever connect to Tai? But in a seemingly easy way, it can happen.
Tai (23:44) Yeah, and I did a podcast last week where it was the opposite. They had no idea who third day was, and I probably never would have, made it past their spam filter. But for the power of referral. And so what's great is in marketing, on the technical aspect, we like to talk about marketing funnels and how do we take them stranger and then they've shown some interest, then they're showing intent, and finally we're gonna turn them to customer. And that process can take so long, it's cost, whether it's just time or resources, at each step along the way to try to move somebody down. But what's the power of referral as we're an illustration of It expedites that whole process. It's like a referral puts someone right to that step that I call kickstart, where you're having that was so beautiful of our first connection. Even just we did a pre-podcast recording Zoom, and it's like we left going, Hey, we're old friends now. Like and and so
Aneta (24:39): Yeah, we that was a conversation.
Tai (24:41): we're able to have this real human moment that gets past, and I'm just like everyone else. I'm inundated with all these things and AI things. And now where every communication can be, typo free and perfect from Claude or chat, but at the same time, there's something in our brain that just goes, This isn't real. I mean I think this is a shortcut for anyone, however, wherever they are, whether they're coming by referral or it's just part of your marketing funnel, whenever you can as quickly as possible get to a real human interaction is gonna really, expedite that growth and conversion and taking someone up that ladder of loyalty.
Aneta (25:19)
Yes, I love that. I wanted to take another riff maybe from the story from your book, using the language here. You talked about something I think is really important, which is about permission. And you used a really good something I remembered, a story. I'm a huge U2 fan also, I've seen them many times. And I remember when their songs were downloaded without permission.
I think it was on the I what was that?
Tai (25:43)
it
was on the iPhone was the thing. The iPhone was just getting popular, so they had
Aneta (25:47)
Okay.
Tai (25:47)
the ability overnight it appeared on just, hundreds of millions of devices all over the world.
Aneta (25:53)
Yes. And people were upset. some people, if they were fans, were like, great, I don't have to pay for this. I got this. But there was still a step that was missing, which was permission. And none of us like to get spammed, whether it's a phone call, an email, someone you don't know trying to sell you something. So can you talk a little bit more about the permission spectrum? And also that story, because I think that it aligns so perfectly
to that when we are marketing, when we are trying to capture some new clients.
Tai (26:21)
Yeah, so U2 like as we talked about, for a band, what a groundbreaking opportunity that you could have the entire world, at least those on on iPhones, have access to your music like that.
what band wouldn't jump at that opportunity. So I really don't fault U2 for it, because I get it. That would be a hard thing at the time to see the problem with it. hey, we're just giving it as a gift. People don't have to listen to it if they don't want to. But for you and I, already U2 fans, it was just a gift. It was beautiful. what I really learned just by like studying it and studying the reaction to it.
Because here's a good metaphor. Let's say
I wanted to write you a handwritten thank you note for having me on the podcast. And I wrote that handwritten note and I put it in the mail and you got it in a couple days. Beautiful. Great moment of delight. You're gonna be thinking, wow, Ty's a lot classier. And I don't have your address yet, but if you give it to me, I will do this. We'll do this off. But
Aneta (27:19)
Ha ha ha
Tai (27:21)
you'd be thinking, wow, Ty is a classy guest. It'd be this great moment of delight, a great human touch point. A lot of us
try to do that in business, write the handwritten note. But if I got to Cleveland in a couple weeks and went to your house because you gave me the address and found an open window and laid the same letter on your pillow on your bed.
Aneta (27:43)
Creepy. Yeah.
Tai (27:44)
Creepy, right?
And so I think that's a great illustration that
Aneta (27:48)
Mm.
Tai (27:49)
without permission, a moment of delight becomes an intrusion. It becomes an offense. And so we have to think about that as we're so eager. There's so many channels that are available to us. And there's things that I've tried. I mean, I've found someone go, like, hey, I'm all about the hustle. I want to connect with this person. I've said
I can guess their email. I can look at the way their email is put together on their website and probably extrapolate their system for you know, is it gonna be just first name? Is it first name dot last name?
Aneta (28:20)
Yeah.
Tai (28:21)
I can send that blind email, but again, how is that gonna be received versus an introduction, and I think LinkedIn becomes the worst of that.
Aneta (28:31)
Yeah.
Tai (28:31)
Like
you have to understand is just because somebody has connected with you, it doesn't mean that you've earned the right to sell them. and so that's a big thing, you know, in just the first part of my framework, the rock star set list, it goes, reach people, you obtain permission is for the O, and then C is cultivate. Before you even try to sell someone anything, my question is what
is something of value I can give that person. Whether it's, hey, now they're in my feed, I'm not gonna instantly give them my pitch. Let's say it's a fellow speaker that I want to connect with and learn, who their speaking bureau is that's getting them their gifts. These are very real things in my world. Well, I connect with them, they agree to connect. Maybe I'm gonna start by taking a week and just now that I'm connected with them, liking their content that they're putting out.
And maybe sharing it with my network, giving comments on it, engaging with them the way that I would want someone to engage with me. It all comes down to the golden rule in so much of good business. and then if you do that, then guess what? They're gonna notice those things, they're gonna see those things. And then if you send them a message of like, hey, I saw we have these mutual things, we have something in common. Or you're speaking on this topic. I
Have you seen this resource? Or maybe the first ask, which I've done with a lot of people, is just gone like, hey, I saw you have this interest in the customer experience. Can I send you a copy of my book? And so you have this nice thing where you lead by serving, not by selling. And then once you've done that, then whenever it you've earned the right to then say, hey,
this is how we can have this kick start moment where we first engage with each other professionally and you're making the sale, whatever that is. But again, it is so important to have permission because someone might have a great offer for you that can really help you. But if they're selling you before they've served you, then
You're going to be defensive. it's like walking into retail and they like, hey, can I help you find anything? What's the first thing we all say? No, just browsing.
Aneta (30:39)
Mm-hmm.
Tai (30:39)
But instead, if it's just a great greeting, Anita, hey, welcome. We're so glad you're here. Welcome to Moe's. Or,
Aneta (30:44)
yeah.
Tai (30:45)
welcome to the store. Take your time and just let me know if anything catches your eye. We'll make sure to take care of you. Just that little touch point.
Then you're at ease. You chop around, you ask a question, you might leave with a whole shopping bag full of purchases. Whereas if they try, Aneta, hey, welcome. You know what? You'd look great in this. Hey, hey, hey, easy. I'm just getting acclimated to the lighting.
I know that's a long answer, but I think it is such an important principle. I think it's time to forgive you two for they tried to just give you a gift.
Aneta (31:12)
Yeah.
Tai (31:14)
It was new tech, but I do think the lesson for all of us is whatever the new tech is, we're always finding new tools. just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Aneta (31:24)
Yeah, I love that story because, I used to post on LinkedIn almost daily and I just felt like I had to get off because I don't know what the right word was, but I would get these DMs and people just trying to sell me stuff and it really became very uncomfortable.
And I don't like ignoring people that are messaging me, but I almost felt like I couldn't engage in a way. And so it was easier to just not go. But I think we live in a world where there is so much of that. There's so much spam calling and there's so much, DMs or emails and people making assumptions. Like now it's on my WhatsApp. I'm like, how do they have my phone number now and they're like, this is what's wrong with your YouTube channel. It's like, I don't know you. I didn't ask. Why do you think that that approach is gonna work?
And so I love so much of the lessons in here because I think it comes back to, as you said, what are the ways that we engage as humans? How do we create a connection? How do you build trust in a real way? And then provide a service that is helpful to someone. So they want to stay, they want to come back. How do you handle customer service challenges? I love you shared the story about that one company with
the shirt that you got and then it was too big, but you lost your receipt, but you almost got it online. Do you mind sharing a little bit about the lesson there? Cause I think that was a
Tai (32:41)
Yeah.
Aneta (32:42)
really great lesson as well.
Tai (32:44)
I'm not wearing it today. I wore it in my last
Aneta (32:46)
Yeah.
Tai (32:46)
podcast. it's another denim shirt. I wore it half the time on the third day tour. But yeah, I bought it in this great little general store in Greenville, South Carolina. We were on vacation and I bought it and I was like, this will be great on the tour. It was like a hundred dollar shirt. And as it got the week for the tour, when I tried it on, it was too big. Then it kind of created this tension that we can have on these customer service issues
is I was like, man, I'd love to get this in a size because I hadn't even worn it yet, but I would love to be able to wear this shirt, but it was just too big. So I went to go look it up. And in the process, I looked up just describing the shirt and I saw that it was for sale 50% cheaper from Macy's instead of this little boutique general store that I had ordered it from.
And so I hatched a scheme. I don't want people to think I'm an evil person because you've done it too. I started hatching the scheme, like, okay, I could just return this shirt and then get my hundred dollars back and then I can buy this shirt for $50 from Macy's and have it delivered in a couple of days. But when I called the masked general store in Greenville, the customer service was so great.
Just the representative. I said, Hey, I bought this shirt, it's a little too big. No problem, sir. We are going to be able to take care of you. Now, first thing, let me just go see if we have the shirt in stock. What size? So, and then he literally walks through the store and finds, Hey, good news. I found the shirt the size that you want. I tell you what, we don't handle the returns here. I'm gonna connect you right away to our person that handles this. So
it was connected to like some national office because it turns out it wasn't as boutique as I thought. There's five or six of these locations. Well, again, just the way I was greeted on the phone. Hey, I hope you're having a great day. Hey, we're so excited to take care of this for you. While I was on the phone, the email came with the FedEx return, no cost to return it. And it was just like all of the thoughts of how I could scheme
which would really be ripping off the store, right? To like they have to get, they can resell this and that. But all of that went away because I was just in such a great experience. My scheme went out the door. And then when I got the shirt, it was like wrapped in tissue paper and then a beautiful packaging and a handwritten note thanking me for my business. Like to the point where then like I wrote about it in my book, I'm sure people that read it, there will be people
There will be third day fans who go to Greenville and go
Aneta (35:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tai (35:13)
to the store because of the book. And like I'm already planning not just to go back to the store, I'm planning like, I want to go back to Greenville every year between Christmas and New Year's is like our little couples retreat for the year. And part of it is to go to the store. And so that tension that can happen on a customer service moment, this wasn't a bad moment. They hadn't done anything wrong, but because they handled it so well.
It actually took me way up a ladder of loyalty from instead of just being like, I went to this store once to it's almost like become part of me. Like, hey, I wrote about it in the book. I was more likely to wear that shirt than other shirts for stage because of this positive association. and so what I'd encourage people, I think the lesson from that is everyone in your organization
should really hold the title as a brand polisher. That's an expression from Don Keogh former CEO of Coca-Cola that, it was a good day at Coke if I polished the brand just a little bit today. And my mentor Glenn Jackson shared that quote with me. And I just think the idea of being a brand polisher, it's like whatever your job description, accountant, comma, brand polisher. Customer service, brand polisher. CEO, brand polisher.
operations, fulfillment, whatever it is, if everyone in your organization says, part of my job is just to make that customer experience a little bit better, which in turn polishes the brand just a little bit more, then you're really set up to have the kind of inside out culture of people like us do things like this that really attract loyalty. And the best brands really do that and you feel it. You feel different.
Let's be honest, I feel different going into a Chick-fil-A than I do going into a McDonald's, and that is that inside out culture that, when I say thank you, they don't say you're welcome. They say my pleasure. And people like us do things like this. That's a real secret to building loyalty for your organization.
Aneta (37:10)
Yeah. I think in the book you said satisfaction versus delight. And it's just one of those examples. They could have just said, yeah, you can return it. And you could have done it, but they went so far beyond that that it becomes something, a story that ties to
Tai (37:24)
Yeah.
Aneta (37:24)
your shirt and it turns an inanimate object into an experience that you recall
Tai (37:28)
Yeah.
Aneta (37:29)
and you write about. And it's all about being human. It's about being present, all these lessons in the book.
And I love
Tai (37:36)
Merely
satisfied is actually risk. Like for
Aneta (37:39)
Mm. Yeah.
Tai (37:40)
an organization, I'm preparing today for a pre-meeting with an accountant group, and for one of their conferences. And I as I just think about the industry and I'm looking at the threats to that industry with AI, with different things, I'm like, if I'm merely satisfied with my accountant, like come next tax season.
Can someone do the work cheaper? And if I'm really satisfied with my real estate agent, then the next time I buy a house, I'm gonna have a new one. whoever's in their life. So all of us, it's so incumbent on us to make sure our customers just aren't merely satisfied, they're delighted. And that can be such a less expensive proposition than our marketing efforts. But often we are so resistant for those moments of delight.
but it could so move the needle and create such a greater lifetime value then we'd gladly spend the money on like a meta ad talking to strangers but yet we have a hard time going like, Well, they're already our customer, they're happy. well, how about some sort of expression that validates that? And my contention, and I talk about in the book, it doesn't have to just be stuff.
It can be about people being seen and heard. And I gave the whole example in there about the way that we interacted with radio for an entire year when we weren't selling anything with the band, but it created this incredible connection and loyalty with DJs that our first single from the next record, I'm not even sure it was any good, but it shot right to the top of the charts because we had built that connection.
Aneta (39:08)
Yeah. I loved reading the book and it's really a great example. Someone who started at 16 in a band, right? You sort of fell into it, you said. You're able to continue with these guys for 30 years. You're doing this tour right now. And in between, you've moved into marketing, creative director, you've had these roles. Now you're an author,
a speaker, what have you learned on this life's journey of making these changes? Cause you're doing something, you master it, you move to something else, you're a beginner again. But how has your faith, I guess, played a part in you being able to make these changes?
Tai (39:44)
Yeah. I think as we talked about with it's a whole lot that is in the book. And I gave a disclaimer again, just like the music, I tried to give a disclaimer for my faith for the book. That I said you my faith does show up in the book. I think if you're a person of faith, you're gonna see it. I don't want people to miss it if they're not, because I s I think there's real truth that just so happen to line up with
the person and teaching of Jesus, because to me, that's the ultimate example of service, is sacrifice, is this example of laying down your life for somebody else. And the best organizations they have that same ethos of like, man, our relationship with our customers is not just transactional. It's sacred.
And I think for us to understand, and I think that's the through line, when I started, I probably didn't appreciate it enough because I was so young and really pretty early, we had a great degree of success. And, for me, since I was 16 years old, people were clapping for me every time I walked into a room. There's probably a certain amount of toxicity that comes from that. I don't think you would have met me and said Ty was a jerk, but
still, you just kind of feel like, man, I'm kind of a big deal. When it was time for me to step into the corporate world, I felt really confident that with four Grammy Awards and a marketing degree, Coca-Cola probably wanted to hire me to be their next CMO. And
Aneta (41:08)
Yeah.
Tai (41:09)
it took a long time of really digging through to go like, no, not so much. And the world just kind of saw me as a musician.
Now, I would argue that if people are looking for their next hire, hire a musician. We're experts at collaboration and we are the show must go on. If you want people who don't give up when there's a deadline approaching and clock out, hire a musician, hire a roadie. There is an incredible work ethic that comes with it. But I knew I had so much more to give. And this whole idea of market like a rock star has been something I've been working on
for over a decade, because I wanted to communicate to the marketing space that hey, it's not that I'm not qualified because I've been playing music. It's that you're not qualified because you think marketing is advertising. And what we learn in music is it's about making fans. And so part of that for me, I talk about it even in that very first chapter. Before we even get into the set list of the songs, there's a chapter called The Garage. And it talks about just how important.
The who is. We all love Simon Sinek's. I love Simon Sinek's work on start with the why. It's so important, but I believe there's a core even inside of that before we even get to the mission of who. His framework, the golden circle, is why, how, what. I definitely borrowed from it, but called it the platinum circle. It's who, why, how, what. And that's about who gets to be on the team, but it's also about who is your audience.
And that really matters. think about your organization, the people that are part of the team, their DNA is all over and shows up on what the product is. And knowing who your audience is, that's gonna totally determine what your product becomes. So I think the best organizations really dig into that work of identity, which is sacred work. And so that's another one of those takeaways and challenges just for myself.
But also for anyone in the book. And when you get that right, when you get the who right, the industry can change, your service offering can change, the product that you're selling can change. But when you have people who, their values, who they are, their love for the audience they're trying to serve, when you really have that as the core, then that can manifest in a lot of different ways and across career transitions and all those kind of things. And
Again, I would just challenge anyone, you really don't know who you are till you know whose you are. And what I've noticed just in the world, I don't want to say anything controversial, but I think sometimes where men have some extra work to do in this area, is I've found when I have conversation with women in the workplace and in the marketplace, the conversation much more quickly tends to go to
who are you? In whose are you? Are you married? Do you have kids? what's your faith? Any of those things kind of tend to show up more in my interactions with women. A lot of times with men, we default to, hey Bob, good to meet you. What do you do? As
Aneta (44:11)
Yeah.
Tai (44:11)
the first question, code for how much money do you make? Are you successful? Are you worth my time? Is there something I can get from you?
Aneta (44:18)
Alright.
Tai (44:19)
And so I'd encourage anyone just relationally to dig into their own identity and to be more curious than captivating. Ask people those kind of who questions that get to the essence of who they are and you'll form much more deep, profound relationships.
Aneta (44:34)
Yeah, I love that. And I love that you do talk about your family, you talk about your friendships in here. So you have a lot of personal stories that gives us a glimpse of who you are, Ty, as well as, like, as you said, your faith in a very underlying way, but not an overt way. I want to give people an opportunity to support you, to find you. You've got the tour, the 30-year anniversary tour. Amazing, congratulations. You've got this book
What's the best way that people can get involved? They can find you and connect with you.
Tai (45:06)
Yeah, I'm very Googleable, which is a lifetime
Aneta (45:08)
Mm.
Tai (45:08)
of music will do that for you. It's T A I Anderson. But all my socials, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram are Ty Anderson3D. if you Google third day you'll get the third day dates, but Tai Anderson Market Like a Rockstar available on Amazon. and then certainly I have a website whether it's marketlikearockstar.com or taianderson.live or just Google Tai Anderson
Fortunately, I've done enough SEO work that I pop up nice and high on
Aneta (45:32)
Okay.
Tai (45:33)
the list. and then I have like it's a problem because I'm actually looking at my window. One, two, three, four, five, six, I have seven different email accounts, all very easy to find. tai@taispeak.com, tai@taianderson.live, tai@marketlikearockstar.com, all those things. If you email me, I promise you I will email you back. And we can have a real exchange as well as any of my comments on social.
Part of something I really take pride of is I don't have any unanswered text messages. I don't have any unresponded emails. I don't have any unresponded comments on social media. In this season of my life, am just really enjoying being connected to people and especially those that are interested in what I'm doing. And yeah, I'd love to hear from anyone who hears this would be awesome. Let me know that you heard me on the pod. And yeah, I would love to connect with anyone out there.
Aneta (46:22)
Great, Tai. I ask everyone a final question, which is what does it mean to you to live the width of your life?
Tai (46:29)
Yeah. I think what's interesting is, in the metaphor that I use in the book, what we talked about spillover, not crossover. I think at first someone could hear that and think that it's a a contradiction to what you're saying. Cause I talk about depth, not breadth.
Aneta (46:43)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tai (46:46)
But think about when you say live the width of your life, it's not about people that are spread too thin are shallow. If you take water and you just throw it
on the floor, it's going to be very shallow, right? It's going to be just spread out. And the best you can do is just wipe it up. I think living the width of your life is understanding what is my lane. Who am I? Whose am I? where do I get to serve? What are all these things? Who are the people that are in my circle? What is the work that I'm meant to do? And then live that fully.
We talked about Jars of Clay. That's the biblical principle. That's the biblical principle. And like
Aneta (47:22)
I love Jaris a play. Yeah.
Tai (47:25)
a great little shout out, Dan, the singer from Jars of Clay, he was the musical director for The Chosen. And so
Aneta (47:32)
wow.
Tai (47:32)
all these great original songs and the sound to it's just absolutely amazing. So he's continuing to do awesome work. But I would say our statements are actually not contradictory. It's finding this is what my life's gonna be about.
I'd also encourage as part of that conversation, this is what my life is not going to be about. And this is what I'm not going to allow to it. Really knowing what you're about and then live fully in As you step into different seasons, I'm trying to live saying no to the imposter syndrome, like, who do you think you are? You're not Simon Sinek, you're not Seth
Aneta (48:05)
Yeah.
Tai (48:06)
Godin.
why do you think you can write a book? You're a bass player. You think you're gonna be a public speaker? You shouldn't even talk. Like there's all these voices in our lives. We'll never live the full width of our life if we are listening to that voice, which I believe is the voice of the enemy. I think where we live fully is when we listen to who God says we are. Who part of me stepping into this only came because of my wife who said, like, hey, it's time.
you've talked about this for a while. Let's go. It's time for you to write the book. It's time for you to step out there. she could have been like, hey, don't walk away from that corporate paycheck. we got bills to pay. But that support gives me this motivation of, I mean, I want to fully do this. I want to spread the word. I want to get out there and I want to add value to other people. So I think where we're both coming from is actually really congruent. that you're not gonna live the full
width of your life if you're trying to be everything for everybody. You're not gonna live it if you let things into your life that get a hold of you and that are not conducive to you being the best version of yourself, that is contradictory with, what would your parents think about it? What would your grandparents think about it? What would your pastor think about it? What would your spouse think about it? some might call that integrity, is you really live that out
then I think as you live out the width, then you can form these deep relationships and you can actually really go high.
Aneta (49:29)
I love that. Thank you so much, Tai. I just wish you continued success. I'm so grateful for the introduction. I love this book. I think everyone should get it. It is such a wonderful reminder of, as you said, how to build fans, how to create genuine human connection, which I think all of us are starving for. And I can't wait to see you guys when you're in Cleveland. Thank you. Much continued
Tai (49:50)
Awesome. We will see you then. Thank you so much.
Aneta (49:54)
success to you.
Tai (49:55)
Thank you.