Episode 153 transcript: Matt Gottesman on Owning Your Gifts and Trusting God's Timing

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[00:00:00] Matt: Success. I never, ever agreed with society's definition of success. So you're telling me that all of us have to have the same definition.

What? What does that mean? I don't understand. So if I do these things and I have these things and these accolades and this amount of money, and all of this stuff that makes me successful? So, success for me it's very different. I'd rather chase my internal knowing than an external fleeting story, if you will.

[00:00:35] Aneta: We often hear people wishing us a long, happy, and healthy life, but what if the length isn't what matters most? What if instead, it's the breath depth and purpose of each day that matters most? Welcome to the Live the Width of Your Life podcast. My name is Aneta Ardelian Kuzma, and join me weekly as I interview guests who have made changes in their own lives to live more fully with intention, gratitude, and joy. Be prepared to be inspired by their stories of how they shifted their mindset, took courageous action, and designed the life that they always wanted to live.

Welcome back to Live the Width of Your Life. My guest today is Matt Gottesman, and he's a three-time founder, podcaster, and writer, and has successfully intertwined his life's work with his passions, purpose, and interests. The Niche Is You podcast consistently ranks among the world's top podcasts for downloads and features conversations that seamlessly weave together business strategy, creativity, spirituality, and personal growth. Matt's writing also on Substack continues to command some of the platform’s highest subscription rates, currently ranked number 68 in philosophy worldwide out of 50 million. And readers often describe insights as exactly what they need to hear, or precisely the right moment. His writing has an uncanny ability to reach into your mind and articulate thoughts you didn't even know you ha,d shared, one devoted subscriber.

His daily writings across platforms have garnered him a reputation as one of the most influential voices in modern media, with followers, often share how his words have fundamentally shifted their perspective in life, business, and purpose. There's so much I could say about Matt, and I recently came across his podcast and have been unable to stop listening to it. He has over 600 episodes over the last several years. He records podcast episodes. He releases them Monday through Friday every week. And they are exactly what I need to hear when I need to hear it. I love following him on Instagram, and our conversation was just so good. I wish we could have talked for hours, but we didn't. So take a listen.

Matt, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited for our conversation.

[00:02:52] Matt: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:02:54] Aneta: Yeah, it's so interesting because you came into my world fairly recently. I'm not sure. What it was, I think it must have been a post that you'd share. And I know that you talked about when something resonates, there's a reason that it did. And so I went down the Matt Gottesman Rabbit Hole and found your podcast, The Niche is You, which I love.

And I've been listening to it. And of course, you have 583 episodes. So, I guess the first thing I want to say is congratulations for being so prolific, but also curious how you come up with the title for the podcast?

[00:03:37] Matt: It's interesting. I think this happens to all of 

us all the time, which is that I had this like online newsletter with Substack at the time, I was calling a newsletter, it's more essay-driven. And I was doing some research. I saw somewhere somebody talking about how everybody's always searching for a niche, and ultimately it's you.

And I was like, I like this concept. And so I wrote an essay on my substack called The Niches You, and it was before I was calling my substack that I was calling it something else. It was like permissionless at the time. meaning, you don't need any permission to own who you are in this world and take ownership and whatnot.

 So the niche is you were an essay, and it did well, too. At that point, it was like my most liked and passed-around essay 

and, 

I had done podcasts before. A big podcast that came to a little bit of a very long sabbatical at this point. And I wanted to do a new podcast that was a solo, 15 minutes in the morning.

And I knew I was going to start it and it'd be like, maybe two, maybe three times a week. I hadn't anticipated doing it five. I thought I could do it over time if it made sense. That's how God works, and I remember thinking, What do I want to call it? What do I want to call it? And it was interesting how, again, it's like sometimes the things that we are looking for the most are always staring us right in the face.

That's exactly what happened with it. The Niche is You. I had that essay up, and a friend of mine who knew I wanted to start this second podcast was like, Listen, I'm hanging up the phone with you. I don't want to speak to you until you do at least three episodes. I think you need to run with that, like immediately, right now. I don't call you unless you do at least three episodes.

And so that started the journey, but I knew I wanted to call it the Niches You, because I was just like, I found that a lot of people ask me often, especially since I came from the tech world and internet and marketing and branding and all these things, and it's so

common. What's my niche? 

And people don't realize that the totality of who you are is what's happening. That's the market advantage. People want to know how you think and who you are and how you do things, because if every single person in a room is all the same thing, like they all have the same background or the same job or domain of expertise, how do you know who's who?

And we figure out who we want to work with and run with because of getting to know all aspects of them. And we live in a world now where people care more about your values and who you are and how you think, and what your principles are.

And who are you? And so I was like, you know what, let's have a conversation about who we are. And I was like, let's just start there. The niche is you, and then yeah, the episodes picked up. Pace, I picked up my pace, more was coming through. Like anything, the discipline of when you show up to do the thing, man, watch out, because more will just start coming through.

[00:06:34] Aneta: For sure. first of all, I love that the name came before, because that's happened to me too with Live The Width and also my second book, Lanterns Of Light, you hear these things sometimes and you're like, I don't know what that's going to be for, but it's something that just keeps coming back and back.

And it's brilliant because I think the niche is you, of course, as a marketer, you think about that. But also when we think about just individuals, and as we are all individuals, we are created perfectly and uniquely. When we're able to step into that, when we're able to align to how we are created and who we are, and we can show up that way, courageously.

That is the differentiator. That is where you don't have to worry about, am I marketable? Am I authentic and genuine, and aligned? Yeah.

[00:07:23] Matt: That's it. That's the underlying message. We came in with all these gifts, each of us, and we came 

In the already approved of, we were created by the creator. 

So 

I find it interesting, and I get that I understand how we got here. I understand how the world got very kind of external.

It happens, there's grace, but what you're looking for is you're going to have to remember it. It's like, it's an internal thing. You can't, and there's always a nudge because everybody intuitively knows at a core level when they can slow down and tap in, they know, they can feel where they're supposed to go or be gutted, and it was implanted in them from the creator. That's an ode to the niche, are you too? It's like, how do you be a reminder to people? That's why I always say on Instagram, it's like the niche is you, I'm just reminding you, I'm hopefully giving you the inkling to ask the questions you should be asking yourself, and remembering before kind of the world told you what to do.

So yeah. And before the world tells us, maybe what's accepted or what the rules are, and what we should do, you talk about God, and you talk about 

I do, 

[00:08:18] Aneta: I love. And [00:08:20] so were you always faithful? Did you always have this close relationship with God? And then, were you comfortable talking about it or was there a period in between?

[00:08:28] Matt: There's a period of InBetween and a progression. It came from a very great couple, like my parents were amazing. My mother was very spiritual, studied everything when it came to God and the Bible, and Torah, everything. She studied it all. The Old Testament, the New Testament, everything.

And she was just so kind, and everything was always about Hey, have your relationship with God. and both of my parents were very independent thinkers. They were very much, I can't tell you what to do. You're going to have to figure that out because that's like part of your path.

 It was probably about 2012, 2013, 1,4. I had a lot of serious life changes. Up until then, I wasn't having as deep a relationship with God. I think I was still, in my twenties and early thirties, a very much in-driven guy mode of I'll make it happen.

 Which was, I'm glad for my work ethic, but you get to a point where something's missing. I was on a plane coming home from a business trip, a brand that I was helping out, and I remember a. I did a great job, but I remember I was reading this book about how you're the average of the people you're around, and all this stuff.

And I remember standing up out of nowhere, I'm like, I'm not so sure about how I feel about the people I'm around professionally. And so I started praying immediately on the plane. The next day, all the contracts were gone. Just like that. All of them. And I was like, oh wait, hold up a second. I was like Wait.

Before that happened, I had gone to a mentor and I said, My soul hurts. And he's okay. He's a very spiritual man, and he is like. I understand, and he goes, for a second, do I want you to forget about religion? And I want you to have a relationship with yourself as a man.

And how do you understand yourself, your emotions, and do you have anger, all these things, sorry to bring up that happened. I went to him because of what happened with the work stuff first. And he is like, listen, the relationship you have with God is a very personal one.

And, I can't tell you what to do because that's between you and God and what God has created for you. He's like, but I get it. I understand. And I was also heading into divorce. It was amicable, but it wasn't anything that I wanted, so as a man, I was questioning a lot of things about myself, and he was like, The relationship you have with yourself is so important.

Who are you in this world? Do you know what you were here to do? And who are you to be a partner in the future? I'd like to see you get married again. And who are you as a man in the community, and who are you as a man in the world? Those are some deep questions.

So and he had some friends here in Scottsdale, Arizona, that he referred me to for just some studies and stuff like that. And so I got to expand learning about God and going back to the beginning, and just like understanding thousands of years ago how we, again, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, and everything in between.

It was fascinating. And what happened, interestingly, about the writing part, about how I integrated it more because I didn't integrate it, but I had this great relationship growing, and a friend of mine who had said this to me, this was probably about four years ago, and she's “ I love how you talk about God.

And I said, thank you. And she goes, you should put that in your work more, in your content. And I did what men sometimes do when we're not clear. I wasn't clear in that moment on that thing. I got defensive. I was like, I do, and she's like, but do you, I was like, I thought I had, and she's like. I like the way you talk about God. I think that's something that I would look into. So I started doing that more, just out of the progression of having my relationship. So I never wanted anybody to ever feel like, let me tell you what to do. That happens. And I think that's why a lot of times, a lot of people, when we're young, sometimes get disconnected.

There was an incident, there was a pastor priest, a rabbi, a parent, a counselor, whatever, that might have scared us. And I get it. I get it. And we get disconnected. And I instead wanted to have a conversation about, Hey, here's how I have my relationship with God. And I can't tell you what that is for you.

And I think that makes it very approachable, which is why I have a lot of faiths that follow me. And that I've even had people who were atheists who were like, 

[00:12:50] Aneta: No. 

[00:12:51] Matt: I like the way you talk about God. And I was like, okay, talk to me, what's up? And they're like, it seems very much like a relationship, and I was like, because it is, it's a personal one for me. 

So that's been the progression, and now it's accelerating fast, because I think we have to embody, we have to lead by example. Again, it's so easy, especially online world, to just say, Hey, here's all the things you should be doing. And I don't ever want to represent that way. I want to be like, Hey, here's some cool downloads that I'm experiencing in spending time with God. Here's what's happening. Here's what I'm realizing even more, and so it's accelerating fast now. 

[00:13:23] Aneta: Yeah, it would be harder for you, at least I feel this way too. It's almost harder to try to censor yourself when you know that. What you want to say, and I love that you tie it into alignment and really connecting to your work and why you're here and using your gifts to serve in the world.

And so do you feel like you are using your God-given gifts right now through the work that you are doing? Yeah.

[00:13:49] Matt: Honestly, I was just having this conversation this morning too, and the other night, this is probably the happiest I've ever been in my work, and I love my work. This is the happiest I've ever been in it. And it feels so good to say that because I'm having such a deep relationship with it. And, yeah, that's exactly it. Using our gifts is also a great way to connect with something higher, with God, with our soul.

Like you realize, wait a minute, I've been spending way too much time looking out there, or maybe trying to get the approval or get the permission or make sense of this, and I get it.

Your gifts, I think, help ground you and give you direction and purpose. And most people want to know what that is right away. And I'm like no. You have to just take it, run with it, and then allow that to give you the direction and more insight into the purpose and things like that.

Otherwise, it's very easy to get distracted in this world. There is so much coming at us. I mean, God bless, like our ancestors had way less to deal with. They had other nuances. They had many other times that they were living in, whether you go back decades or centuries.

And I get it. But we have so much coming at us all day long. Having a relationship with your gifts, I think just grounds you into, let me just focus on these things, and I'll go from there, and I'll figure it out all while, of course, you get a lot of the world being like How do you know this?

And is that responsible? And it's stop, just stop. Just let me do these things. Let me get to know myself, which is a responsible thing to do, and let me see what this is meant for. And I'll figure it out and have God, so let me be respectful for the things that I was given. 

[00:15:26] Aneta: Yeah, it's so true and I found in my own experience, I'm curious if you had the same experience is, the more that I step out and the more I embody these gifts and the more that I trust and surrender and connect to God and allow him to work through me, then bigger opportunities come right? So when we can be trusted with little, we could be trusted with more.

Because sometimes we want to know the purpose, we want the big goal, the big dream, but we cannot hold it, like we are just spiritually immature, or we just don't have enough trust, or we haven't surrendered, or we haven't let go of other things. And so we actually can't do that, right away.

But it's through the process and the trust and through the faith that all of this deepens. And then you're able, like I just rewrote my tenure vision because I was like, I'm living the life that I wrote back in 2017 when I was miserable and corporate and was like this vision of this life.

And I was like, that's my everyday, but you don't stop there. You just say, okay, I'm ready. How else can I serve? What else do you want me to do? And it's through that process that you're able to take on more. At least that was my experience. So I don't know if yours was similar.

[00:16:37] Matt: Yeah. Sustainability, and I had to learn it too. I always ask people, I'm like, what's the rush? What's the rush? And I was like, so did you not want to enjoy any of this? They're like, no, but I need to get to that. I was like, no, I get it. I get it. And I was like, and I was that way too at one point. 

And I remember I was driving once and I felt God's voice, but like, what's the rush? And I was like, I don't know. And it started to come through to listen instead of always trying to be somewhere, can you enjoy the whole process?

I, for the longest time, would always, sometimes, not always, I would get annoyed at the it's the journey, not the destination. And I was only annoyed because I didn't understand it until I realized, I'm like, oh my God. It has nothing to do with the outcomes when you love what you do so much and you're so aligned and you're so in tune and you're really in your race, you're like, I want to be here forever. I love this. 

And you start to realize that the accolades or the outcomes or any of the things that come with you being beautifully in your gifts as just a byproduct, and then you won't play for those, you'll play for the game that the race that you're running and you'll want to keep running it so well with diligence and obedience and calmness and humility and sustainability.

I don't want to be disconnected from it. I don't want the distractions that could potentially be offered. While at the same time receiving the beautiful bonuses and gifts, and rewards for doing the right work. So it's a balance, and then yeah, you're right, it grows. Our consistency compounds, we need time to keep developing and keep allowing our gifts to expand to evolve, to be sustainable. And if we're given everything so fast, it can also leave so fast, and we can get disconnected so fast. And so that's how I realized. I'm like, oh wow, we just want to be in the game, like playing it with so much love and joy, and it's a lot of work, but it's the kind of work you want to be doing. Like you are like, no, this, I want to be doing this. And that feels good. 

[00:18:48] Aneta: It is so good. And you have made a commitment to do the podcast daily, so I'm curious about your creative process, and do you batch, or do you set time aside? Because I know one of the things you talk about is just this idea of discipline and commitment and showing up all the time, because when you're in alignment, you want to, you can't help it.

And it's so much easier than if you have a problem and you don't want to show up, then maybe it's a question of, are you doing the right thing? So, just curious about your creative process and just how you structure your week or your days to be able to do that.

[00:19:22] Matt: Absolutely. One of the very first things I did was start to have a relationship with my time and my week, and my schedule. I was always very creative, and so the irony was that I knew how to work hard. I don't know if I knew necessarily how to work very structured, and those are two very different things for me, at least.

Once I started learning about structure and foundation, and how I would want to do things, and how to better do things, and how to approach things, and also looking at my day and saying what a good day looks like for me. You have to have an understanding of where you want to go.

And I bring that up to a lot of people because otherwise, you might get burnt out. We all get burnt out. It's very easy. It can be very easy. And I started first looking at my schedule weekly and being like, how would I want my days to ideally flow? And that was all things.

It wasn't just my work. I wanted. My work to work around my life, not my life around my work. I think it's a very big distinction, because otherwise you can lose yourself and also not do any of the other things that matter. Health matters to me. My faith matters to me, time for building relationships and potentially a home and kingdom, and all these things.

And then activities, things that spark us. I had to figure out what a schedule looks like for me and understand my dynamic about sleep habits, health habits, nutrition, and all these things. They all play into it. Work and we don't even realize it. And again, like why the niche is you.

And I keep telling people, I'm like, but there are so many aspects to us that have to play together. Our health, our relationships, and our money all have to play a role. We can't just start compartmentalizing the way society has done to us, where we sacrificed the others for one or whatever. So I did that.

And then, as I started to understand my flow and how I was doing things, I was doing the podcast, what had happened was I was doing it in batches. I batch on Sundays and Wednesdays typically, but I also try to get out ahead by a week or two. And I will do three or four episodes on a Sunday and then two or three on a Wednesday.

So part of my creative process is I keep a notion dashboard of ideas, of running ideas, like anything, creativity is a muscle, and the more you're in the game, the more it just keeps flowing. And so I'll just keep documenting a running list of topics like whether there are great conversations I'm having again, see, like it's important about what you're doing with your day, who are you around?

Or what kind of conversations are you having? because things come through, and I'll tell people, I'll pull up my phone. I'm like, listen, this isn't, I'm not being distracted by you. This is a great conversation. I want to talk about this in a podcast. And so I always have an ideas bank, a place that, like, I can at least put what's coming through for me about, this would be a great topic.

And then I do a series of things where I like to just riff, but I'll make some bullet points and people ask about AI and stuff like that, since I am a techie, and what I had done is I went into my own AI, and when I say my own, like, my accounts, and 

I gave it hundreds of episodes of the topics, including transcriptions. I also gave it all of my Substack essays. A lot of just my writing in general because I was like, I wanted to know, hey, here's the stuff that I like to talk about. So I'm still the creative director.

I do all my writing, I do all my, everything, but I wanted it to help me streamline the processes, like making outlines or helping me make templates for to set me up so I can just dock in and so yeah, so I'll take some of my ideas and I'll say, chatGPT or Claude here's a really important topic to me and here's everything about why it's important to me. And it'll be like, great, here's four bullet points. I'm like, perfect.

[00:23:04] Aneta: Yeah.

[00:23:05] Matt: And so I take that, I put them in my notion, and then I sit down here, I push record, and I go, and the thing that I think is important to tell people too is you have to be careful of overthinking way too much. That's the trap.

 You get better by just doing it over and over again. And that's why I always tell people to find the things that you can't not do. Find the things that you just want to keep talking about that you can keep talking about. And people always ask I don't know.

I'm like, yes, you do, because you're already interacting with your friends and family and the world in the physical form, talking about certain things, and they're very natural to you. And you'd be surprised at how many areas you can do that. Yeah. So I do it every Sunday and Wednesday.

I have templates in my editing process that my editor friend taught me. And so they happen within minutes. But you learn processes and frameworks from doing the work. 

So you do it, and then you're like, okay, do I make a preset? Do I make this into a template that I can use for another one? Bring it in, do another one, bring it in. So we have to constantly be very present and think about how I do this thing better next time. 

And then how do I make it easier and frictionless for me to do more? And then you build a cadence, and then all of a sudden, before you know it, I ended up with five episodes a week.

And people are like, you're out of your mind. I'm like, I'm just getting started. Let's go. And so they're like, they look at me. But it wasn't right away. But it's been two years, those 580 episodes. It's two years. And I picked up the pace, and it's only speeding up because of doing it and enjoying it. 

[00:24:37] Aneta: Yeah, you can tell it's natural and that you are just having a conversation, which I love, but there are always. Several bullets where I'm like, he wrote these down beforehand because they're just too good to be like, sometimes, of course, things just drop in, but there are just things that sometimes I'm like, that is so good, and you can turn that into a post.

You can turn it into [00:25:00] a quote, whatever you want, but it's so awesome and so I love that you've got these systems and processes that allows you to be so prolific and then also allows you to stay on point, on message through different channels, through different mediums, and that where people know, and you've built this brand around the things that are so important to you.

[00:25:21] Matt: Yeah. 

yeah. Thank you. And it's like we need both, we need the creativity to come through and we need structure to contain it, to hold it, and to expand it. You see, a lot of times people talk about the different energies, masculine, feminine energy, and balancing creativity, intuition is very free flowing, right? But you need structure and discipline to contain it, to be like, Hey, I like this so much. Let me help you.

Because I've had people say I need the creative process to just flow. I need it to just come to me when it comes to me. And I'm like, that's one way of doing it. I used to do it that way a long time ago. I was like, Do you love it? They're like, I love it. I'm like, do you wish you could do it more? They're like, I do. And I'm like, what if I told you can? I was like, that's devotion.

[00:26:03] Aneta: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Matt: I was like, so I set aside two hours every single morning, specifically for the creativity and for the work to come out, and like, I can't do that.

I'm like, I didn't say that it was always going to produce something, but I set the relationship with, I was like, does this sound familiar? I think you probably do this with a spouse. You do this with your friends, wherever you devote to your health, to your body, to your nutrition, to your cooking.

If you don't quote, please excuse the word. If you don't schedule, if you don't make the time, the devotion can't flourish. They can't, it won't be there. And so I was like, find the devotional time to honor the things that you want to do more of, and to grow, and they're like, I hadn't thought about it that way.

And I was like, that's what helped me. And so now, because of doing it so much every morning now all day, stuff is just flowing all the time. So I was like, I get you, God. I was like, That makes so much sense. The more you're in your body of work, the more I can hear you.

It's like God has the greatest sense of humor, truly. God has the greatest sense of humor. because it's everything is so simple, and humans make everything so complex. because we're human and we were made that way, because that's how we need God.

[00:27:11] Aneta: Yeah. Yeah, impatient. I think he is so patient because we get in his way all the time. Yeah, I love this idea of the daily devotion. I wake up at 4:30, and I also have a couple of hours of devotion in the morning. So I'm curious, are you willing to share just a couple of different things that you do that allow you to stay aligned and connect?

[00:27:31] Matt: Absolutely. Yeah, I do the 4:35 AM thing as well. The morning I spend anywhere from an hour to an hour and a half with God. I will do deep prayers, I change them every day, but I usually do them for three different areas of my life: my creativity, my work, my health, and my relationship.

And so I think, really grounding in those prayers, I also write out the prayers, whatever might come through. And I'll sit and meditate on them and reflect on them with God, and also try to understand, like, hey, what needs to work through me, but it's mostly from a place of gratitude.

 And I started to understand gratitude even more because it helps you understand what's happening in real time versus what you think is happening from an emotional place. After all, it's very easy to get discouraged by not having certain things happen or a certain way, or outcomes that were different from what you anticipated.

And I started learning to implement a lot of gratitude in the process, at least a minimum of 20 minutes to half an hour to understand, oh, thank you, that this happened, and it didn't work out this way. And that maybe it's meant to, and what starts to happen is I start to feel more like god's divine plan.

Yeah, because the thing that you want is over here, or like you start connecting the dots in a way that I'm like, I wouldn't have picked up on that. And that's incredible because it brings so much clarity. And then it also brings a lot of calmness to your kind of what's happening versus what you think is happening.

Because it's very easy to look at situations that didn't work out, quote unquote Didn't work out. Or are just not the outcome that you'd wanted. And thinking like, why me? And this is horrible. And then you're like, but is it? What's going on? And so that's helped.

I also try to do anywhere from a half hour to an hour before bed, just during unwinding time, at least half an hour usually. And then sometimes it just goes over, and that's usually in just personal reflection and gratitude and also prayers and stuff. And throughout the week, I have a couple of different groups that I study with, and we talk about all the concepts, from the Bible and Torah, and like all the ancient texts and whatnot.

And just really understanding the word of God, but how we can relate it to ourselves. But yeah, mornings are my morning routines, that's pretty much it. And sometimes I'll then also go outside for a walk and do the whole golden hour thing and have the sun and just a lot of appreciation. And I also use that time for whatever comes through me to get some of my greatest creative work to come out because I'm spending time with God.

If I start the day with God, you better believe there's a lot of stuff coming through. I'm like, oh, okay, let's go. And so while I automate a lot of my work throughout all the social media, Instagram is the one that I do manually every single morning. Automatically. It's manual.

And it's because, A, it's my biggest community. And B, I love it. I love getting into the habit of doing it every day. Whether it's something I'm just reposting or I'm something new. But it's my way to connect with the world and allow what's supposed to come through me. To go out with everybody else.

And I feel like when you do that with intention, yeah. The messages I get from people are like, Oh my God, how are you in my head? How do you know what's going on? I was like, I don't, but God surely does. Yeah.

[00:30:54] Aneta: It's the power of resonance, then, right? Because that's the way I felt, too, with your work. I was like, wait a second, what? I'm doing these things too. This is so crazy. And that's how you find other people, and you get the courage to also use our voices and stuff too.

I always talk about devotion and discipline with my clients as well. is like the devotion gives you the focus for the discipline, and then those two things are so interchangeable, it doesn't feel like work, but then your work becomes, like a form of worship too. So it just becomes this, it just feeds itself over and over again.

[00:31:26] Matt: Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah, it's self-sustainable, it's self-sustaining. The more I'm in it, the more in love I am with it. And the deeper the meaning it has for me, and again, that's why I'm like, the journey. I get it.

I so get it. This feels amazing, and then you start to realize. Then you detach from the outcomes. Because I tell people, especially when I coach or mentor or advise, whether it's companies or individuals, of course, you want to have benchmarks for how you're doing.

Of course you do. So, I still bring that part of the structure in. But we have to be very careful that we're not using metrics for validation of our worth so much as how do we optimize our work to have it better serve and grow and expand, right? So it's more from a let's be technical and tactical, not attached emotionally to like how that might mean for our worth.

Because otherwise, if you don't see results right away, it's very easy for people to get discouraged. And I'm like, yeah, but is it good work? 

Do you like the work? And that's also how God works. And at the same time, to listen, we need to take time to be in the work. It does take a lot of sharpening, that's why I say so, do the thing that you want to do, because then you'll just keep going. Even when it can be discouraging. You're like, yeah, but this does feel right. You'll know. You notice the difference. You notice the difference. 

[00:32:53] Aneta: It's sort of distancing ourselves or detoxing from the external definition of success and the external validation versus being able to connect and know, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. These are my gifts. This is the scale, this is the service that I can bring into the world.

And so I'm curious, you had a successful career doing other things before podcasting and writing, and talking about your faith and all that. And so you were successful. You had this outward success. So what did it look like for you to slowly start to either slowly or quickly, maybe after your contracts were done?

I'm not sure how quickly that changed, moving from the external definition of success into that internal alignment and validation.

[00:33:35] Matt: I have an interesting relationship with that word, success, and business in general. I love business. My whole background is in international business. All my education was in international business. I'd always dealt with international brands. And, yeah, that was in 2014, but then I continued to do a lot of consulting up through 2019.

I then had a digital agency from 2020 to 2023. Success. I never, ever agreed with society's definition of success. So you're telling me that all of us have to have the same definition.

[00:34:10] Aneta: Right.

[00:34:10] Matt: What? What does that mean? I don't understand. So if I do these things and I have these things and these accolades and this amount of money, and all of this stuff that makes me successful? And so that's where I'm grateful for the way my father, my parents, both raised me, but my father was very much you have to figure out your path. You have to do what's right for you. Don't listen to the crowd ever. Don't ever listen to the crowd. And I was always really grateful for that.

I think he was coming at it from just a very independent place, but when you couple that with my mom's spirituality, I was like, okay, then I'll ask God. It's like, so, no crowd, no society, but you have to take time, though, to figure stuff out. And so success for me, even though I didn't necessarily agree with it, I do know that when I was younger, yes. I still chased the external in a way to give meaning that I know what I'm doing with my work, until I realized. No, doing the work shows you that you know what you're doing with the work, and then just allowing yourself a lot of time for that to take shape. But it's been different, yes, over the last few years.

And the irony and this is what I tell everybody, you'll see more, quote unquote, external success when you're doing the right things that you should be doing from the internal, that becomes a natural byproduct. And the best part is you're no longer even chasing it.

You're not even trying to force it in any way. That's just the natural outcome of you being on purpose and being in your energy and your path. So it's very different. I'd rather chase my internal knowing than an external, fleeting story, if you will.

And it's very loud. The external is very loud. And we have to do so much to protect the mind, the body, and the soul, okay, perfect example. Especially as an entrepreneur, it's very interesting when people say you're going to trust your intuition.

You're like, how do you know it's going to work out? And what happens if this happens? And whatever number of things that people say to you when you're going to go out on your own and do something. And I always find that so fascinating because I'm like, aren't we always talking about trusting your gut?

And isn't that also a relationship with God? And I was very fortunate to have learned this from very strong, wise women. Women are naturally in tune; they're naturally intuitive and connected to God. Women protect the spiritual and the physical. And I was very lucky and blessed to learn from women how do you tap into your intuition.

No variables are necessary. No proof yet in the physical. But you have to trust yourself. You have to trust God. And that is funny because that's entrepreneurship. And so I was like, women are naturals, they're naturals at it, especially when they listen, and isn't that funny? Like, why do we give such a hard time to intuition, yet we celebrate the people, every business, everything that exists, period. Everything that exists other than God makes it happen. But everything that exists was made by a person who trusted their gut, who trusted their intuition to go make it.

So we celebrate it after the fact. So yeah, I think that we have to be kinder to people who are willing to forge paths because it is not easy in a loud world. I think that gives a little grace. Allow the person breathing room, and I'll tell you, anybody doing better than you will never put you down, ever.

Because they know. They're in the game. I always say run with the runners. Anybody in the game, rookie to advanced pro level, anybody in the game running will look at you and be like, I so get you. I so get you. Whatever you need. I got you. I'll help. We're good.

It's great. Everybody else, kindly just observe from the sidelines if you're not going to play, because we don't want to hear it. Yeah, so I think that was a little bit of a tangent, but I just think that it's, you get to a place where we are now living through an amazing time where success is being redefined by the individual, from them being on purpose and using their gifts and talents in some way and bringing them to the world in a contributory manner that brings value and nobody is standing in our way anymore. You can't, that's the beauty of the internet. You can't stop people now going into their gifts. I have self-taught friends, chefs with millions of followers, friends who are now gardeners, and making millions of dollars a year.

You meet all these people who they said, you know what, I don't need anybody to validate, or I don't need a certain degree, which we won't go on a tear there, but to say that I can or cannot do these things, I'm going to do them humbly in public on a platform.

Grow an audience and we'll see where it takes me. Because this is what I'm feeling called to do. And that to me is beautiful success.

[00:38:59] Aneta: For sure. And I think that when we get to redefine it and ask ourselves the question, what does it mean? What does success look like in every area? What does it mean to be wealthy? What does it mean to live a life when you wake up with gratitude and go to sleep with gratitude, a full heart every single day, like that's freedom. That's the gift. That's the joy of being alive and the gift of being alive. And if we're not present enough for the journey, we miss all of it. We miss all of it.

[00:39:26] Matt: Yeah. And then, not that we can humanize God, but I feel like God would have his "I can't" face in his hand. Just kind of like, you're missing the whole point. I want you to enjoy yourself while you're here. And while at the same time not feel lost and confused.

And I always tell people the good analogy that I use is to imagine that the beauty is that we all have free will. We were given this because we want to feel empowered by our choices. Some choices we make don't feel so good. Some choices we make are, and God's a choice like your partner would want to be a choice. Not necessarily, just out of obligation, but out of devotion, right?

And so I always say we've got this great, like God gives us this body for our soul, and is Hey, listen, while you're down there. Here's a manual for the Ferrari I gave you.

You might want to check it out. It's going to help, I want you to feel covered and maybe have some instructions on some things to think about, and maybe they don't make sense all right away, but you should try them and see what happens and see the blessings that come from that.

Whenever I say to people, they're like You make it sound much simpler. I'm like, I think it is that simple. I think we're just very defiant because we want to make a lot of things happen, and I get it. And the question is, are you also making yourself available to receive help?

[00:40:51] Aneta: Yeah, for sure. The ask, believe, receive is like such a beautiful scripture and just when we think about it and in practice, you mentioned your father, and I know that you've talked on your podcast before about his passing and that was a moment too, where you were able to reexamine your life and business, and what were some of the lessons from his passing if you don't mind sharing.

[00:41:13] Matt: No, I don't mind sharing at all. I remember you'll never really know until maybe we meet again. But I was watching him down the stretch before he passed, probably about a couple of weeks. And I remember him sitting in this hospital bed, and he was doing some work.

He loved his work. Not the way I love my work. He loved his work; he knew he was out of service, but I know he wanted to do other things. He was a lawyer and a businessman, but the law part, and he did family law and so he dealt with a lot of tough situations. Good and not so good, but he dealt with a lot of people's situations and emotions, things like that.

And I was watching him work down the stretch, and I'm like, wow, this is the time for rest. And now, I also felt a little bit like he wasn't just working on client stuff. I think he was also working on family stuff. I could feel it, like, are you preparing? You know what I mean? And I admired how he didn't just leave like he owed his family everything, meant everything, all of us meant everything to him. And he was always thinking about our needs and our path in some way, not to tell us what to do, but to make sure that like we were covered in some way. And I admired that about him. The lessons that I got during that time were one health.

Your health and your rest. And not waiting till the latter part of your life. He was a healthy individual for the most part. because my mom helped. But he didn't necessarily make more workout regimented type of things or some food choices as much as my mom helped him with.

But he didn't actively do it without her, and I thought about, wow, he was 76. I thought that was young. 

And none of us know our time, but I would like to cross that finish line at whatever age, not like this.

That was one of the things, and I thought, I don't want to ever put family into this kind of position if I can help it. And so let me just do my part. It also taught me a lot about systems, and I know that sounds funny, but I started realizing, I'm like, I want to do my work differently. 

I was turning 40, and I'm like, this isn't going to fly anymore, how I'm doing things. No. No, I got very discerning. I got very boundaried, I got very clear, and I was like, here's how I want to work. I'm going to dedicate myself to putting more systems and infrastructure, and foundation into my work.

So it can grow and expand, and I'm not a slave to it. And that I can build in a way that also allows me to have a life and build a kingdom, and serve far greater than being only in the work. I want to be smarter with it. So it taught me a lot about that.

And then it also taught me a lot about thinking through all of the things that you may not often take the time to. I always thought about finances, but not like I do now. Like it made me think about how things are set up, how things are structured, what do you do in emergencies and who else do you, take care of, because he did that, I admired how, mind you, he was a lawyer and also did his states and he knew how to set up trust and things like that, but it was remarkable to see how he had a, God forbid, emergency, should something happen to me?

Here's how you can find everything and take care of everything. I admired that. And I found that even after his passing, I still feel his presence now. It's like he planned in a way that he could help even after he's gone. I love this guy.

I was like This man is just so smart and so loving. He never wanted anybody to feel like, I'm not there for you, if I'm not there for you. 

So that also really lit me up, too. And so it was a lot, it was a heavy reflection period. And it also came in the year 2019, when my whole life was changing yet again. My business partner and I split up. My mentors and I stopped doing some business and stuff together. My uncle passed as well. I had a friend who prematurely died from a fatal accident. Two friends.

It was one of those years where so much was changing so fast that I was like, God's in the work. You can't have that many things and a whole life change with so many variables without God rearranging people and positions and places and all these things. And I was like, you know what? I'm listening. And that's where it accelerated for me with God.

[00:45:33] Aneta: Amazing. Yeah. We don't always see all the whys things are happening, and sometimes you don't realize that it could be protection or redirection, and that it's aligned to what you're supposed to do. And we don't always listen to the nudges. Sometimes there are things that we hear, but we don't necessarily take action on.

So the final question I have that I think you've answered throughout, but I would love if you could share, is what does it mean to live the width of your life?

[00:46:01] Matt: You're right. I think we did discuss a lot of that. It's to remember yourself and what you're here to do, and have a relationship where you don't need that answer right away. But you need to be, I think, constantly in the pursuit of that answer for yourself and that allows God into your life, that allows your soul to drive a little bit more than the mental side of us, and it also allows for a lot of the ease and abundance that most people are looking for actually will come from doing your things. The things that you're inevitably here to do, and having that relationship with yourself and your soul, and living that I'm telling you, the happiness and the joy that comes from that. You'd be surprised.

You can feel what abundance feels like versus needing something outside of you to feel it. And then that puts you in a place of constantly, all I want to do is be in this game. That's all I want to do. I love it so much.

Don't pull me out of this game, of like my life, my path, the things that I'm doing. It feels so good and I now get people that I've admired, whether in sports or the arts or just in their work, that they were so dedicated to the ones that there was something different about them and you realize it had nothing to do with the sport or the business that had everything to do with they were in their genius and they were in their soul. And you're like that. I want to just play from there. And that feels so good, and we should all allow ourselves to do that because we can. 

[00:47:23] Aneta: So good. Matt, if people want to find you to work with you, to learn to read all your stuff, what's the best place that they can find you?

[00:47:33] Matt: Yeah, fastest ways, Instagram at Matt Gottesman, mattgottesman.com. Substack is mattgottesman.substack.com and The Niches You podcast.

[00:47:43] Aneta: Thank you so much. This was such a gift to me, and I can't wait for people to hear our conversation.

[00:47:49] Matt: Thank you so much, Aneta. This is amazing, and thank you to all your listeners, too, for having me here in the space with them.

[00:47:53] Aneta: Have a good day.

Thank you for listening to today's episode. If today's conversation inspired you to dream again, break out of your comfort zones or reflect on what it means to you to live more fully, then please follow this podcast because every week you'll hear more stories from people just like you who took imperfect action towards their goals, created more joy and are living the life that they always dreamt of living.

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