[00:00:00] Paul: Integrity. It's about that. And when we're living out unconscious, inherited ideas or scripts, that's not integrity because you're living someone else's life. You're not living your life. And then when there are conflicts between the parts of yourself, kind of like we started all those different hyphenated versions of ourselves, even when we're conscious of them, there can be some cross currents and some conflicts there.
[00:00:27] Aneta: We often hear people wishing us a long, happy, and healthy life, but what if the length isn't what matters most? What if instead, it's the breadth depth, and purpose of each day that matters most? Welcome to the Live the Width of Your Life podcast. My name is Aneta Ardelian Kuzma and join me weekly as I interview guests who made changes in their own lives to live more fully with intention, gratitude, and joy. Be prepared to be inspired by their stories of how they shifted their mindset, took courageous action, and designed the life that they always wanted to live.
Welcome back to the Live the Width of Your Life podcast. Thank you so much for joining me again this week. My guest today is Paul Gyodo Agostinelli. He is a sensei, a respected Zen master, a serial tech entrepreneur, and a transformational professional coach who has successfully incorporated the practices of Zen Buddhism into multiple businesses.
He has served as an advisor, and a coach to numerous professionals across many industries, helping them to transform themselves. And their organizations. And over the past decade, he's led hundreds of workshops, retreats, and one-on-one intensives helping people apply Zen meditation and principles to thrive in work and life.
He offers services through his Zen at Work program. He talks about Zen and Buddhism and his work and life on his weekly podcast, The Game of Zen with his cohost, Scott Berman. We had such a delightful conversation. I was fascinated and curious about, Paul's journey to taking his Buddhist vows in 1991, receiving his Dharma transmission in 2015, and really how that's influenced his approach to life and work.
He talked a lot about the principles of Zen Buddhism, particularly presence and purpose how he's incorporated them into the modern workplace, and what inspired him to focus on this intersection. We had such a great conversation and it was really helpful to talk about the practicality and the way that he brings his principles to everything that he does and how he's managed to integrate this into his personal and business career. I had such a great conversation and enjoyed it. And I think you will too. Take a listen.
Paul, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.
[00:02:48] Paul: It's really happy to be here, Aneta.
[00:02:50] Aneta: And we have our mutual friend Sage to connect us, I think through LinkedIn and you and I had a wonderful conversation probably a couple of weeks ago and then thought, I'd love to have you on my show. So thank you Sage for the introduction.
[00:03:06] Paul: Yes, thanks, Sage.
[00:03:08] Aneta: And Paul, I love your story as I read through your bio, and you and I've had conversations. You are one of those people who is multi-passionate, multi-hyphenated and experienced through life, which I think is perfect for this podcast because so many people think that decisions are binary or you have to pick one thing to focus on.
And I know when we get into your story, I think people are going to be inspired by the way that you are living your life in so many different capacities. So do you mind sharing a little bit, maybe about how you got interested in Zen and also how you became a Zen teacher or Zen master?
[00:03:54] Paul: Yeah, very good. Well, first, I want to say I appreciate your kind of model and your focus on the width of your life. Like you say, I've kind of covered a lot of bases, multi-hyphenated, and a lot of people are like that. We have these different dimensions of our lives and some of them don't always get owned or served and you want to be conscious of supporting that full width for everybody.
So let's see for me, I got into Zen formally in my mid to late twenties. I'd been exposed to Buddhism and meditation earlier in my life and I had a really strong intellectual interest in it. I studied physics as an undergraduate and there were real interesting corollaries between quantum physics and mystical traditions like Buddhism.
And I really kind of dug those early in my life, but it wasn't until a few years after that in my late 20s when I felt some real emotional decentering. I got very depressed. I had a really painful relationship breakup and my life kind of spun out. Even though I had a lot of academic success, I was beginning to have a lot of professional success, but I got very decentered.
And I remembered these things that I had kind of heard about Buddhist teachings, about finding happiness, stability recognizing that we were creating our suffering in a certain way. And I said, Oh, okay. I think this is what those teachings were talking about. So being very experientially focused, I was raised as a Catholic and there's a lot of what for me came across as dogma and belief systems there and not as much experiential understanding or even experience of say what Jesus was talking about or what the priests were talking about.
It didn't connect for me. So I got disaffected from my Catholic upbringing at a very early age, but I always understood Buddhism to be a very experiential kind of thing. You can experience what the Buddha experienced. So it was time for me to do that. And I jumped in. I explored a few traditions before. Not very many, but when I encountered Zen, I just knew right away that this was my path. The reason for that is that Zen is very direct.
It's very simple. It's very non-dogmatic. It's very experiential and it's also very intense. I am an intense person when I find something that I want or something that I am interested in, I go for it. And Zen is pretty intense in that way. So I jumped right into a life of Zen. I became a resident at the Zen Center of Los Angeles where I was living at the time.
I just jumped right into a very dedicated meditation practice there, sitting two times a day, doing monthly retreats, and practicing with advanced teachers and transmitted teachers. Myzumi Roshi was the transmitted teacher who founded that center. So that's what got me into it.
And it gave me a path to follow which I've been on ever since. That's kind of taken me to a place where now I can offer teachings and guidance to others on the path.
[00:06:59] Aneta: Thanks for sharing that background. So tell us a little bit more about it for those who aren't familiar with Zen. So what are some of the principles and also why is it intense? As you said, it's intense. Is it due to discipline or, what does that look like?
[00:07:12] Paul: Yeah, so Zen is the form of Buddhism that focuses on meditation as the experiential awareness of what the Buddha was talking about. So the Buddha has core incredibly insightful core teachings about how we create suffering for ourselves. What we do with our minds, how we manage and organize our own experiences, and how we create suffering for ourselves.
Now we can intellectually study those things. And it's often helpful to do that, to understand in a sense, the map of the territory of our minds and our hearts. But feel it and walk a path of feeling those things and then self-liberating from what we're doing in terms of those reactivities within our bodies and minds.
That's where the intensity comes in to do that. And Zen is the form of Buddhism that says meditation, cultivating meditation is the front door. One of the teachers uses that term. Meditation is the front door to experiencing the truth of what the Buddha taught and self-liberating from our self-created suffering.
So it's very intense because, in Zen, we do a lot of meditation. We do a lot of meditation to affect that transformation within our body minds, our hearts minds, and to make it happen here now in this lifetime, in this month, in this day, in this week, in this hour, in this moment.
[00:08:40] Aneta: Thank you. And when you sit in meditation, is it a quiet meditation or is it guided or is there a way to do Zen meditation that might be different?
[00:08:49] Paul: Yeah, it isn't guided. There are three objects of meditation in Zen. So the first one is breath practice, which most people are familiar with because that's the primary. There are a lot of reasons as you know why breath awareness is the best object of meditation. It combines the inner and the outer.
It combines the autonomic and the parasympathetic nervous system, and the sympathetic nervous system. All of these wonderful sorts of bridges and interior experiences are bridged by the breath. So doing breath practice is incredibly deep and it also serves to stabilize the mind and develop continuity of awareness, which leads to concentration, which we call Samadhi or concentrative awareness.
And it's from that Samadhi, that we can enter into a co-creative relationship with the universe. So breath practice alone, it sounds simple and it's oftentimes maybe only spoken of by say mindfulness teachers in a very simple way that you're just calming your mind, but it's incredibly profound and incredibly deep and can lead to a full co-creative relationship with the universe. So breath practices are one.
The second one in Zen is what we call the Koan study. And some people might've heard the term koans. You might've heard the example, what is the sound of one hand clapping or showing me your face before your parents were born. These are kind of interesting paradoxical riddle questions that come through.
And so there's a whole series of 700 or more in some traditions of these koans that we meditate on and they can affect a real breakthrough in our self-understanding when we reflect on them with meditative awareness. So koans are the second.
And then the third form of meditation in Zen is called Shikantaza. That's the Japanese word for it. It's translated as just sitting or only active sitting. And this is objectless awareness. So we say we're focusing on a single point where the single point is the whole universe. Everything just gets absorbed in what is happening, including your independent self-sense. It just gets absorbed in that.
And it sounds simple, as all Zen practices are in a sense simple, but it's very difficult to achieve this kind of level of concentrative awareness. And that's a lifetime of practice with Shikantaza. So those are the main three.
[00:11:18] Aneta: I love it. I love that you say it's simple, but yet can still be complicated to do. And every practice is so different. I noticed this in my meditation. Every day is different. And the way we show up is different. Is there a length of time for Zen meditation? Like a typical length of time to sit in meditation?
[00:11:37] Paul: 30 minutes a day is a good baseline. Yeah, 30 minutes, as you know, you can get benefits from 10 minutes a day. You get more from 20 minutes a day and you'll get more from 30 minutes a day in a sense, It is better but you need to have it be at a level that you can integrate into your life consistently. Very few people can do say an hour and a half a day or more. And I recommend not setting yourself up for failure by going for a big amount I would say it's better to get the amount that you can consistently do every day. What's more important is the consistency than the length.
[00:12:14] Aneta: Beautiful. And so how long after you started studying, did you become a Zen master or Zen teacher?
[00:12:21] Paul: Oh, let's see. It was 20 years. Yeah, it was 20 years after I started. Well, let's see. No, if I go back to when I first started it was more like 20 or it was more like 30 years, I guess I'd have to say it is not uncommon for the level of transmission to get a full transmission, which is what we call it.
So to be an independently authorized Zen teacher typically takes us several decades of practice.
[00:12:46] Aneta: Yeah, that's amazing. And along that time, you also were a serial tech entrepreneur. So tell me, did you keep your Zen practice and that part of you separate originally from the work you were doing in the tech space? Or did you always have this integration?
[00:13:06] Paul: Yeah. Well, yes and no. I think I always did them. So I was very committed to both of those parallel paths, but did I have them integrated? No, it really, took me a lifetime into my more mature career, the last eight or nine years to integrate them explicitly, consciously earlier.
But, I will say this, and this is important because I teach this as well, that I did have a dedicated commitment to the spiritual practice from the beginning to the point where I would never let a commitment to any of my professional ventures compromise my commitment to my practice. And in fact, I was invited to be part of a startup or a company, I should say we didn't have startups at this time. This is 1990.
And I was invited to be a founder, an initial person in the company. And I just decided to come on as an hourly employee because I didn't want the obligations of the company. To interfere with my practice. I wanted to be able to take time where I wanted it and to go on retreats every month.
So that quickly changed. I became a staff member and I was able to commit to a full professional career side by side with my deep practice. However, I always maintained the level of my spiritual practice at a very high level.
[00:14:24] Aneta: How do you bring your presence, the purpose, and some of the principles of Zen into the modern workplace today?
[00:14:33] Paul: Well, that's the big question, isn't it? Everybody needs personal practice. So what I try to do is to encourage people to do a personal practice where they can find themselves every day. In my experience, and I'm curious about your experience, too, because you work with corporations and wellness departments.
I think there's a certain element of group work that can be done. But in my experience, a lot of places might have a meditation room that they create, and then it isn't necessarily used, people want to use it. And I've found that too with the organizations that I've worked with is that there's a kind of a lot of headwinds, if you will, or crosswinds for people to take the time to do that individually, let alone as a group.
So what I've found to be most valuable right now and most helpful is just to encourage everybody to individually find the time to do a practice and to find a community or a group. And this might not be in their organization. It might be as a separate meditation group or you Sango's such as the ones you run and I run to get Sanga support group community support for their practice.
[00:15:48] Aneta: it's hard, isn't it? But I am encouraged. I just did a session last week and it was focused just on mental health. And the experiential piece was a guided meditation that I facilitated. And the CEO emailed me afterward and he said, I watched to see if people were participating and he said, I was shocked at the number of people who were really like in it and participating the entire time.
Which I was encouraged. I have my eyes closed as I'm channeling. And so I wasn't paying attention to all the squares, but he was, and that was encouraging one that was important for him. Because we talked about a lot of things, but for them to actually be practicing and to take something with them afterward.
And two, it's beautiful when we practice together, the energy that you're able to create. And so the permission to be able to do it together, I think was really beautiful. And so I am encouraged by people's willingness and also leaders who are open to trying new things to help their teams.
[00:16:48] Paul: I am so happy to hear that. That is wonderful. And I think the keywords that you said were permission and leadership. It's like, there needs to be permission from the leaders. There also needs to be permission from oneself to enter into a practice. And there are oftentimes obstacles to that.
And then the leaders do need to represent a culture in it and value taking time to do this. So I'm so happy to hear that you're able to bring that forth.
[00:17:17] Aneta: Yeah. I mean, a lot of people out there, so all of us need to do our part, but it's nice to sometimes I think for someone to guide you through the first time then you can see what it feels like. But I do want to talk a little bit about it, I know you've got a program and you've got, it's like three pillars, right?
You've said intention, purpose, and vow. The trinity. So tell me a little bit about that and how you came up with this program or is it a philosophy? I don't even know what you call it.
[00:17:45] Paul: Yeah, I'm kind of calling it a model now. And the Trinity is these areas of our lives, self, work, and others. That's the Trinity. And I've developed this with inspiration from David White. The poet and he's got several books where he talks about these things.
He calls them the three marriages. I read that book a long time ago and it just really resonated with me and I've used it as a template to understand my path and my process. And to look at working with these, I say kind of quasi-independently because they're but they also need honoring each one on their terms.
So our spiritual relationship with ourselves. It's our identification with the highest person that we can be. However, you understand that God, the spirit, the universe, and the cosmos which is way bigger than your ego. We all have that. We all have aspirations in that direction and there are paths to follow.
In that area, we have sacred opportunities in relationships. We can make vows towards other people and grow in relationships. And all of us have to have some kind of intentionality around what that is for us. We want out of intimacy and connection and relationship.
And then work is equally sacred as those two things, the purposeful, meaningful work that we're doing in our lives. So in all three of these areas, what I help people to do is to understand their kind of existing unconscious vows. And I know you work a lot with limiting beliefs and unconscious scripts that people have.
So that's uncovering what those unconscious ideas and commitments are in each of these three areas to de-script from those to rewrite new intentions and vows with a conscious purpose in each of these three areas, and then to help them work with how to balance them and how to recognize when there are perhaps some compromises or difficulties or clashes between these three paths and help people to negotiate those things.
[00:19:54] Aneta: Isn't it interesting when we examine where there's conflict and we can identify maybe where we're not in integrity with ourselves it's such an eye opener because then you can do something with that information.
[00:20:07] Paul: Yes. That's the word, isn't it? Integrity. It's about that. And when we're living out unconscious, inherited ideas or scripts, that's not integrity because you're living someone else's life. You're not living your life. And then when there are conflicts between the parts of yourself, kind of like we started all those different hyphenated versions of ourselves, even when we're conscious of them, there can be some cross currents and some conflicts there.
So where to find the deepest integrity? And it's been my experience. And this is what I bring forth as my offering with people is that vow to yourself, that spiritual vow has to be the base. When that's the baseline commitment is to revealing yourself and growing from that place, then the relationships to others and the relationship to your work the conflicts get resolved more easily when those are in a sense subordinated to that baseline commitment to growing in your own heart and spirit.
[00:21:16] Aneta: And sometimes that's the work people never get to.
[00:21:19] Paul: Exactly. Right. Exactly. That gets bypassed, right?
[00:21:23] Aneta: And then you wonder why you're feeling out of balance or unhappy or whatever the emotions are sometimes because the alignment is not there. No, that's beautiful. So do you work with people primarily one-on-one or do you also have group programs? What are the different ways that folks could work with you if they're curious?
[00:21:41] Paul: Yes, I do both. I do one-on-one work in work like we're talking about here. And I take people who are they're typically at a transition point, a turning point, a stuck point, a moment of growth. It could manifest in a professional capacity. But as we've just talked about these other aspects of our life are usually involved in some way.
And I can help them move through understanding what the core kind of knot is or blockage is, and help them integrate these areas of their life. So I just love all of my coaching clients that I'm working with on a one-to-one basis. And that's a very deep, rich work for me.
I've also begun doing group work. And I call that the Zen at Work Catalyst Group. So I have a small 12-person cohort who come together and we go through an eight or a 12-week process of description, understanding our vows across these three areas, and then really learning to fulfill those vows from the meditative qualities that we develop in meditation.
You know them as the Buddhist paramitas. The virtues of a bodhisattva, which we develop, and we can put these into practice in our lives to fulfill those intentional vows that we create in the three areas. So, in cohort groups I run that way I have a strong kind of meditation background that I coach people in.
Some people. they're doing five minutes a day and some people have deep zen practice and they're doing an hour a day. So it doesn't matter as long as there's something intentional there. And then it's worth mentioning that I've also introduced plant medicine support as part of the cohort groups for people who are interested in doing that.
And not everybody is, I would say most of the people that I've been working with are, but not everybody is. And there's some allyship that I introduce support in terms of meditation and medicine as part of these catalyst groups.
[00:23:36] Aneta: And so tell me a little bit about your experience with plant medicine in terms of what people, the biggest, I guess, benefits that people are seeing from experiencing the plant medicine versus maybe doing some of the more traditional work.
[00:23:50] Paul: Traditional work means,
[00:23:52] Aneta: Either like therapy or just meditation on its own or breath work on its own. How is it may be helpful to couple it with some of these other practices?
[00:24:02] Paul: Yeah, so yes, it is helpful to couple with other practices. It's very good to have an intention for why you're microdosing or macrodosing with any of the plant medicines. What I'm seeing and also have experienced is that there is a capacity of the mind, which is opened up through plant medicine.
In some ways, it's very simple. The chemistry, the neurochemistry of plant medicine is being more and more understood in terms of the serotonin exchanges and connections that are being opened up. The neuroplasticity, which is being opened up from this.
So it is very real and very anecdotally supported the way a certain capacity of the heart mind, emotional resilience, creativity, and ability to be a quantum is creativity that opens up because more neurological connections are opening that are supported by doing something like microdosing.
So in some ways, it's very simple. It just gives a bigger capacity to that heart's mind. And it supports a meditative process. It supports these therapeutic processes, which are more, you could say targeted toward specific mental and emotional afflictions and syndromes.
And I'm not a therapist, so I don't work in that way. I work more in the capacity of opening and then helping people with whatever their intention is towards meeting their life with openness and heart.
[00:25:33] Aneta: And you mentioned both microdosing and the macrodosing. dosing Tell me the difference. Is there a duration difference or what are some of the differences between those two terms?
[00:25:43] Paul: Yeah, They are very different. You're taking with micro-dosing. You tend to take a very small amount, almost sub-perceptual that you either can't feel anything or you might feel a little bit when you take the micro dose, but over time. And so you would take a very small dose, according to a certain protocol, it could be four days on and three days off or one day on and two days off a certain protocol.
And over time it has been shown that certain qualities of the mind are developed over periods of weeks and months. And these tend to persist. So that's the microdosing protocols that I'm radically summarizing something that you can listen to great podcasts that go on for hours of excellent information around this stuff, but that's kind of microdosing in a nutshell, I would say, and certainly how I see it.
Macro dosing is something different, more powerful than deep. You would take a large dose that would kind of take you out for four to eight hours. Okay. You would be doing it in a safe space with a trained guide or for the facilitator or two in a very safe space where the environment was very cultivated and very intentional.
It would be a journey that would be preceded by some preparatory work that you would do with your facilitator. Then you would have a very safe space to do the journey work. During the journey work, typically you have your eyes closed. You would have an eye mask. You would have some intentional music to help you through the journey.
And you would severely limit the external stimulations that you have to go into a deep inner journey. You'd have clear intentions that were set and the intentions do tend to structure and frame because they're informing the medicine about what you would like. And so you develop, in a sense, a relationship with the medicine.
The medicine becomes an ally to help you have the experience that you're looking for. And you go through that. And then as you come out of that, there's an integration process that your guides will help you with in the hours following your journey and in the days and weeks following your journey as well. And these have proven to be transformative in people's lives.
[00:27:59] Aneta: Absolutely. And I know we're hearing much more about it and Tim Ferris, I think is a big advocate and he's talked about how it's worked for him, and Andrew Huberman, I think has had a lot of podcasts on the topic as well. So thank you for summarizing. And you do retreats and you also have, I believe a center, a Zen center. Tell us a little bit more about that.
[00:28:18] Paul: Yeah, I have a Zen Center in Boulder, Colorado. It's based in Boulder. We also have virtual programs that we offer through it. But it is something that I developed when I got transmission as a teacher nine years ago, and it offers full-on formal Zen practice, in the form of daily meditations that we do. Group meditations.
We do a lot online. I do a weekly program, a public program where we get together and I typically give a Dharma talk or one of my leaders of my Sangha, we'll give a Dharma talk, and then we have a group discussion around some aspect of practice, Zen practice or Zen Dharma, Zen teachings.
And then we do a monthly retreat as part of my center. So those are in-person retreats. We also offer virtual participation in those, and those are between one and three days, I have a retreat area, a contemplative caregiving center, just outside of Boulder where we get together with a beautiful Zendo and offer retreats with quite a bit of meditation, but also some of the other formal aspects of Zen practice like chants and Dharma talks and one on one interviews with me as the teacher all as part of those retreats. So yeah, it's a full-featured Zen center.
[00:29:32] Aneta: How do you find the time to do all of this and continue to do these tech companies, these startups, and other companies that you're still involved with? What does that look like for you?
[00:29:43] Paul: Yeah. I have no idea. I have no idea. In some ways, I take it one day at a time. As you know, being a multi-hyphenate and with all of your ventures there's a certain level of planning that you do and organization that you need to establish. And then you just do it you kind of throw yourself in and you meet every challenge every day, every hour as it comes up. And keep the balls in the air.
[00:30:10] Aneta: And I think it helps when you're passionate about what it is that you're doing, then it doesn't feel like work. It feels like you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. You're on your path.
[00:30:20] Paul: That is the absolute key. That is the absolute key. And if you try to do that it's kind of a sign, a symptom, isn't it? When you feel like you're juggling and you're always behind and you're not juicy about what you're doing, even though you think you're doing what you should be doing or what you want to be doing.
It's a sign that you're disconnected from your passion and purpose. Because when you are, you tend to dodge the bullets, you meet the challenges and it becomes now I don't want to sugarcoat it. It's very challenging. It is certainly very challenging.
And if I'm not on my game. If I've got even an A-plus game, I can have a rocky day and I can fall behind on where I would like to be. So it does take a lot of presence.
[00:31:07] Aneta: So if we have some folks listening and maybe they find themselves, stressed maybe in the job that has been challenging for some time, or they're finding that it's hard to wake up. Maybe they're not feeling as joyful or grateful every day. What are some things, some tips that you would share with them in terms of maybe where to begin and to find a little bit of relief or more joy?
[00:31:29] Paul: Yeah, I would coach them into a daily period of taking care of themselves. Meditation is a caretaking of oneself. So that's why I talk about presence and purpose. So from a place of presence, that means being present to yourself primarily. If you're not present to yourself, you can't be present in your work.
Typically the stress comes when you're facing all of these externals that are coming at you, but you're not grounded in a safe, comfortable, restful, peaceful place in yourself, you're not at home in your own body and mind, so that's where to start.
Find that home in your body and mind, even if it's 10 minutes a day. And from that place meet your day and from that place, find your purpose and your passion. We can get distracted and all we get into the, well, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And this is the path I chose.
And this is my career path. And the overwhelm could be a sign that you're not really on the track that your heart wants you to be on. So within that meditation practice, continue to ask yourself that question and develop that view, that discernment around what, and where your heart wants to go.
And that's the most important thing that'll help you with that kind of stress, overwhelm, and burnout.
[00:32:54] Aneta: Absolutely. So if people want to work with you, what is the best way that they can find you?
[00:33:00] Paul: Yeah, they can come to my website at zenatwork.org and sign up for a free discovery session with me. And I'd love to meet everybody and hear their story. And just talk about where I might help give some insight into what I'm seeing. And let's offer some suggestions about working together. So yeah, I welcome everyone to come in that way.
[00:33:23] Aneta: And you also have a podcast called The Game of Zen. So encourage people to listen to that as well. How long have you guys and Scott been doing the podcast?
[00:33:33] Paul: Actually, it's just been about six months. We're on episode 15, so it's been relatively recent and we're just getting a real kick about doing that. Yeah. Thanks for the plug.
[00:33:43] Aneta: Of course. You're welcome. We'll include all of those in the show notes. And then I always ask everyone a final question tied to the title of the podcast. What does it mean to you to live the width of your life?
[00:33:56] Paul: I love the question. It means to live your whole self with passion, purpose, and intention. Yeah, all the aspects of your life, all the personalities that are in there, all the desires that are in there, and across all of these dimensions of self, relationships, and work. Don't leave anything out.
[00:34:21] Aneta: Beautiful. Thank you, Paul, so much. Thank you for the amazing work that you are doing in this world. I love hearing your story and am so grateful that you spent some time with me today.
[00:34:31] Paul: I appreciate it. Appreciate it, Aneta.
[00:34:33] Aneta: Good luck to you always.
[00:34:35] Paul: thank you.
[00:34:35] Aneta: Thank you for listening to today's episode. If today's conversation inspired you to dream again, break out of your comfort zones, or reflect on what it means to you to live more fully, then please follow this podcast because every week you'll hear more stories from people just like you who took imperfect action towards their goals, created more joy and are living the life that they always dreamt of living.