Why 90% of Arguments Start With Bad Listening
Julie Nise
(YouTube Transcript)
Aneta (00:03): Julie, welcome to the Live the Width of Your Life podcast.
Julie (00:07): Hey, Aneta.
Aneta (00:08): Hi, it's so nice to meet you. I'm so excited for our conversation because you are an expert and have made a career and vocation out of something that all of us could benefit from, which is communication and listening. So you've worked with thousands of individuals and also couples on this. How did you get interested in the work of communication and the work that you do?
Julie (00:36): It was just kind of a natural evolution. I'm probably off a little, but about 95 % of people who come in to see me, when I ask, what is it you're here for? How can I help you? Communication is the answer. Now that means a million different things to a million different people, of course, but the theme was there. And if you drill down even further, what people usually mean by communication is they stop arguing. Yeah, so after they stop arguing and doing damage, then communication can mean a whole list of other things.
Aneta (01:10): Yeah. What do people think communication is? Like when they first come in, before maybe they do the work and they say, they're not communicating well with me or worse.
Julie (01:21): A great question. Realistically, what they mean is my partner isn't listening to me, and my partner doesn't agree with me. Which is not true in the first case, probably true in the second case, but that still doesn't mean that's a communication problem.
Aneta (01:38): That's interesting. What are the biggest challenges that you think most people have with listening?
Julie (01:42): Most people are not really good at listening. They're just waiting for their chance to jump in and say something. So in their head, they're already composing what their next comment's going to be. Actually listening to someone is a huge skill that's very important and should not be overlooked. So there's a lot that goes along with communicating, but certainly
One really important thing that I teach people almost upfront is the real meaning of your communication is not what you thought or meant or intended to say. It's actually in the response you get. So that flips most people's notion of communication right on its head because it isn't just what you're saying or even what you intended or hoped to say. The real meaning of your communication is only in the response that you get from your listener. So, for example, if I said to you,
Gosh, those are really pretty glasses. I bet that didn't sound like a compliment, did it? Of course, your glasses are adorable. I love them. I may have actually meant that as a compliment. Now, of course, I exaggerated my body language, my facial gestures, the tone of voice, and all that. But the words were right.
So if I meant to compliment you, it sure didn't sound that way to you. So if I'm only looking at the response I'm supposed to get, if you say, what's wrong with my glasses? That's not the response I get or want. So anything short of, thanks, yeah, they're my favorite, or I just bought them last week, some little something about that that shows you saw that or heard that as an appreciative statement, then it's my job to back up and come at that again so that you actually receive it in the way that I had meant.
Aneta (03:31): Yeah, well, that makes me think of, and I don't remember the source of the study, but I know we talk about those words and the content actually is only 7 % of the…
Julie (03:42): Yes, 93 % of communication is body language. Absolutely correct. Yes.
Aneta (03:47): Body language, tone of voice. And so in this day and age where so many people are distracted and maybe have a hard time listening, paying attention, being fully present to the other person, what are you seeing in terms of communication? Like, are we seeing a dip actually because people have all those reasons?
Julie (04:09): Absolutely. And then throw in everybody's on their screens. I literally have to explain to people, don't have conversations in text. Don't do that.
Aneta (04:19): Yeah.
Julie (04:19): You can say, hey, I'm running five minutes late, or would you mind picking up some bread on your way home? You can say things like that. But you do not ever want to have in-depth, important conversations in text. You have no context of what the person's saying or meaning. So there's no way you can have accurate communication that way.
Aneta (04:39): That is true because we see even through social media where people are posting threads and comments and all these things that can feel the energy and the emotion, and whether that's what was intended or not intended, right? It leaves so much up for interpretation, but it also is curious because we do have other avenues. We can leave a voice memo if we really wanted to. Of course.
Julie (05:04): We could pick up the phone and call. I mean, for heaven's
Aneta (05:08): Phones still do that, but some generations feel really uncomfortable doing that. They didn't have the experience maybe of having that telephone, the rotary dial one with the long cord in the kitchen that you used to use around the house, right? Or even, I know when my kids were small, I just wanted them to be able to order a pizza or to make a reservation.
And actually force them to do that because I wanted them to be able to have those skills. So what are you seeing with the younger generations, and are most of your clients older? I'm not sure if there is an age demographic.
Julie (05:44): No, I get them all. I've got one of my favorite clients right now. They're both 22. And they go up to 80.
Aneta (05:49): Interesting. So I'm really good. Perfect. So are you seeing? Any generational?
Julie (05:57): Younger set are definitely socially retarded. I mean, there's just no other way to say it. They lack so many of what we would think of as basic skills. The fact that you would have any problem at all calling somebody on the phone to have a conversation is just ludicrous. In fact, there's a funny story one of my clients told me.
He decided because the cell phone situation was getting so out of hand with his preteen kids that he said, okay, put your phones in the charger. We're gonna have one old-style home phone, the rotary dial on the wall. And he said he walked in shortly after they installed it, and his daughter was kinda looking at it like this, kinda strange, and he goes, what's wrong? She goes, well, where's the camera?
Aneta (06:40): God, I wish that weren't true.
Julie (06:43): That's so funny. Anyway, yeah, really struggling. They're really struggling. In fact, more and more, I mean, you hear stories about younger people actually trying to have relationships with AI bots.
Aneta (06:54): Yeah.
Julie (06:55): This is way out of control.
Aneta (06:58): Yeah. And I think that there's the element of loneliness with that too. It's like when you have a hard time communicating with someone in real life or even through the phone or a video, it could get really lonely because you end up not having the exchange. And then I think just the energy that we spend sometimes trying to decipher what other people might mean in a text message.
Right? And we guess wrong. Sometimes we guess correctly, sometimes we don't. It's hard to ask. How is this impacting couples? I know you work with a lot of couples, and what are you seeing with couples when they come to you in terms of challenges that they're experiencing, and what are some of the first things that you do with them to really help them learn how to be present, to listen, to have better communication?
Julie (07:47): Well, start by changing whether they're internally aware or externally aware. With all these screens and all the things that people go through socially right now, they're very internally focused. And we're social creatures by design, by biology. So that means you have to be good out here in real life.
I tell people all the time, the single best relationship skill you can have is the ability to come out of your head, notice just what's going on in front of you, and respond only to that. But they often don't. They're thinking or feeling whatever they're thinking or feeling in their head, and that's not going to be conducive to having good interaction socially. Awareness of the other person is huge. Also, just in terms of being successful as a person,
You have to have your awareness externally on what it is you're chasing, your goals, your objectives. My website is called Outcomes Only for a Reason. Everything we do should be pointed toward one of our numerous goals. Because if what you're doing or what you're saying is not moving you forward, getting you closer to a goal in some way, it's either irrelevant, you're just wasting time, or perhaps it's damaging.
So this external awareness is key. It's also that you can't have empathy without pretty extreme external awareness. And empathy is one of the most important things you can have in your partnership.
Aneta (09:09): Absolutely. And what about the internal awareness, though, of being self-aware of if I say something and I'm not in an emotionally regulated state, or maybe my partner isn't, like, there is a little bit of that internal awareness too, before we speak.
Julie (09:26): Yes. when we are in that awareness of the real meaning of your communication is in the message as it's received, that would sort of suggest that if you really wanted to be good and accurate about getting your message received the right way, or the way you intended, then you would have to stop and think for a second, okay, well here's what I want to say or do.
What's the likely outcome of that? How is that going to land? Because so often we just pop off with whatever we're saying or feeling or thinking or doing, and we have absolutely no thought about how it's going to land. So the whole idea of thinking first- think before you act, I think somebody said that once- thinking about what you're doing before you do it actually ends up working pretty well.
Aneta (10:17): Yeah, do you have clients that are sent to you by their companies because maybe they're successful leaders, but they for some reason are not very good communicators, and it's starting to impact, or is it mostly people coming to you individually because they know that they're struggling with something?
Julie (10:34): Mostly I work with couples, I would say, but when I work with corporations or businesses, it always revolves around communication. Either the senior management is not communicating well with the people below them, and there are issues with that, or even something as basic. I've done a lot of sales training for folks, because what is
Aneta (10:53): Interesting.
Julie (10:54): Sales? It's communication. And salespeople are making all the same mistakes in their profession that most people make in their relationships. So, no wonder they struggle.
Aneta (11:04): Yeah. Do you offer couples training, or do you call it training like what you do?
Juli (11:09): I do. As a matter of fact, I do. Although I'm a licensed therapist with three licenses in two states, I do not do therapy. I don't believe in therapy. I don't think it works well at all. I think it's very counterproductive and actually backwards to how people actually get successful. So I call myself a relationship trainer. Most people would think of me as a therapist, but whatever. It really is training. I don't analyze. I'm not going to label you.
I don't just disseminate lots of information and hope you pick it up. I train you to give you insight and skills, specific skills that will make you successful with whatever your outcomes or goals are. So in other words, you have to come to me and say, I'd like to get better at this or I'd like to stop doing that or I'd like to understand whatever. And so those are the goals and that's what we chase.
Aneta (11:57): I love that, and it's very similar to coaching. We're always moving forward, working towards the goals, not going backwards. Did you use to do couples therapy? In the past, have you ever done that?
Julie (12:05): Well, when I first started, I did, because I didn't know what else to do. And it was after I figured out that it doesn't work. And I had so many questions about how to do it better. I've been doing this for 20 years. So this is the evolution of 20 years of doing this.
Aneta (12:22): Interesting. So if someone were to come to you and they recognize that something's not working and they're struggling with each other.
Julie (12:29): They usually know what's not working. They're usually pretty clear on that.
Aneta (12:33): They recognize they might have a communication problem. Maybe they can't articulate exactly what it is, but you're helping them. Walk me through: what do you do first? How do you decide or figure out what the real challenge is? Or is it pretty common that everyone struggles with similar parts of communication and relationships?
Julie (12:52): Commonly, most people do struggle, but I'll tell you the first place I start with them is what they have to change and how this is going to be different. So unfortunately, people have this sort of assumption or understanding about how therapy works, which is where you just go in and the therapist becomes an audience for whatever it is you want to talk about, and you just go on and on and on, complaining, griping, and whatever, and that's supposed to fix things.
That makes things worse. So one of the first things I have to teach people is how you're going to approach the learning. It usually starts with something like, well, first of all, when I first bring them in, you can't just come in for a session. First of all, all I have are programs; I don't do individual sessions. So in order to determine if someone can be accepted into a program, I have everyone come in for a free 30- to 45-minute screening.
And in that screening, they can ask any questions, of course, and get a chance to see my approach or my style because it's very direct, and if that's good for you, that's great, and if it's not, then it's not a good match. But I get a chance to see how they take feedback, how change-capable they are, and how flexible they might be because all those things are going to be required. For example, they need to right away understand that their old beliefs and ideas need to change.
So one of the first things I ask them is, are you willing to change? Because you know the saying: if you keep doing what you've always done, you're going to keep getting what you always got. And the reason your butts are on my couch is you probably don't want that anymore. Are you willing to change? Because I'm going to hold you to it.
You need a broader view of your relationship. And the second thing I have to teach them is everybody comes in with a whole lot of emotion, a whole lot of feelings; a lot of them are negative. The shift has to happen from how am I feeling right now to what do I want to accomplish? In other words, your feelings actually need to be attached to your goal, what's going on right in this minute. Because if you are only focused on what's going on right in this minute and your feelings, that's a trap you'll stay in for a very long time.
Aneta (14:58): Interesting, and I imagine that some people want to stay stuck in their feelings.
Julie (15:05): There are. I do not assume that everybody that's in my office wants help. That's very true. So we're hardwired to have emotions. That's normal. But we're also able to regulate them. And being able to regulate them is a very important process. So if you just want to come in and just, you know, blast your feelings out all over the place as if that's supposed to be helpful, I'm not your girl. You'll be in the wrong place.
Aneta (15:31): How quickly after you meet a couple are you able to determine whether they actually want to change and whether then you feel like you can help them?
Julie (15:41): Pretty much right away because that's the beauty of the screening. I will test that in various ways to see how they respond. So for an example, there's something called the credibility model where you state something controversial and then prove it.
So if I say something controversial or bold, I watch for their reaction. And if I get a reaction like, well, that's not, we can't do that. I get the pushback or a debate. See, I have to explain this is not a debate; this is training. I'm not here to debate with you about your position. You're here to learn something new. So the faster we get rid of some of your old beliefs and ideas, the better it will be. And I am not an audience for you complaining to me about the other person. You can't pay me enough to do that.
Aneta (16:34): Other people do that.
Julie (16:36): Yes, there are plenty of other people who will be a paid audience. That's not me. So, yes, I have to be able to see how they take feedback. So if I say, okay, well, it's not that I mean about it, but I say, okay, well, I hear what you're saying about that, but let's look at it this way. And I toss that back to them. What I'm hoping to see is, okay, well, I never thought of it that way.
Julie (16:59): Great. Then that would be somebody that would be likely to do well. But if they debate it, or that'll never work, or she'll never do that, or in my family we always used to, or I wasn't raised that way, all that kind of poor shit I don't really care.
Aneta (17:13): Yeah, interesting. So you said something that I'm really curious about: you said you have to unlearn certain things, and you have to, yeah, what are some of the big ones? Are there like a top five list of things that most people have to unlearn?
Julie (17:28): Well, unlearn or relearn. Mostly you have to unlearn or stop doing the way that most people treat each other in relationships is pretty bad. They get it to the point where they're really functionally like roommates. Or worse, like siblings. Arguing back and forth like siblings. So you'd have to unlearn a lot of what made that happen. People do not protect their romance. They do not have good boundaries around that.
And people have a lot of just silly ideas like, a very common silly idea for women is, I should be able to talk to him about everything. No, you should not. Or the guy comes home from work and wants to dump all the problems out he had at work on his wife. No, no, not a good idea. The idea that women, that men will just know, they just know or should know what we're thinking. No!
We're way too complicated for that. So no, we have to explain to each other what we're all about, what we need, and what we want. Another big problem is men get too wussy. They are so obsessed with trying to make the girl happy that they give up their mission and their purpose and their leadership, which makes things much worse, and women don't actually like that. But men don't know that. So they run around trying to make us happy when they should be leading and being that strong, consistent, immovable force that we can depend on because that's what makes us feel safe.
If they're always caving over to what we want, we do not feel safe. We already know we can manipulate the crap out of them. That's obvious. But we don't really want to get away with it. Is the funny thing. Then the other problem is, on the other side of it, women have no earthly idea. I mean, not the first clue how to respect men.
Aneta (19:23): Tell me more.
Julie (19:23): So if you actually have a man-up man, Chances are the woman he's with has not even any idea how to actually respect him. And see, to men, respect is huge. It's a gigantic thing for them to have. And so they also run around without a lot of respect, which makes them very unhappy.
Aneta (19:43): What does respect look like for a woman to respect her partner, her husband?
Julie (19:47): Well, when I ask women that, they usually say, I have to listen to him. No, that's nothing to do with listening. He wants to be heard. No, that's what you want. Respect to him means very different things. It's not always in this rank order, but it's pretty close. Usually it starts with appreciation. Men are seriously underappreciated. Women take men for granted.
They might throw out an occasional thank you, but there's no real sincere appreciation for who they are, what they do, and what they give. Second is affection. The first thing a woman will pull off the table if she's pissed, resentful, or annoyed is sex and physical affection. It is hugely important not to do that because that is blackmail. Flat-out blackmail. Third is agreement. Because women do something called cert by distinction in their head, usually, they're always disagreeing.
Like, at the drop of a hat, they just disagree about everything just to disagree or find an exception. Men communicate, essentially, by agreement. Unless there's some significant reason to disagree, they generally agree. So to have a partner that's running around disagreeing with every little freaking thing is quite annoying and a stress on communication.
Fourth is trust. Women are very distrustful of men, however that came to be. It's a bad thing because if you're with a little boy, you should not trust that; that makes sense. But if you're with a man-up man, you should absolutely be able to trust him. And when you don't, that's a problem. The fifth and final thing that really means respect for men is admiration.
And that is not because they have some sort of big ego like women tend to think. They actually have pretty fragile egos if you want to tell the truth. But admiration for a man is validating to him. Because everything he does is for the betterment and higher purpose of his wife or family. So to have them acknowledge that and actually value that. Like they really admire the man that he is, just makes them feel like Superman.
Aneta (21:58): Interesting. And then what have you found for women? Like what do you mention as one thing that is different in women? Women want to be heard. What else is important for women?
Julie (22:06): Always. But see, the problem is they start from a backwards position. Like everything they say has value and is worth saying. So yes, women like to be heard, but God's divine sense of humor is that women like to talk, and men hate to listen. I can't change that biological imperative. So what I can do is suggest that men certainly need to be better at active listening and better providers of being a good audience.
But it's not the case where the woman should just be able to, and it's usually bitching and complaining when she wants to vent; I hate venting. She wants to vent all her feelings or vent all the bad things that happened to her that day. Well, no, that would not be, that would not be good.
So yes, men should be better listeners for sure, and men really need to make double sure that what they do and what they say sync up. In other words, if it comes out of their mouth, it has to happen. They have to be completely dependable. So if you say you're going to be home at 6.30, your butt better be driving in the driveway at 6.30, not 6.35. Or she's gotten a phone call before that saying, hey, I'm running a little late.
So communicating, I just think of that as common courtesy, but staying in touch, checking in to see what she needs, all that kind of stuff is very important.
Aneta (23:22): Interesting. And we're generalizing here, like from your experience, of
Julie (23:25): yeah, wildly.
Aneta (23:27): Course, but it's helpful to be able to think about it also makes me think of the five love languages and understanding also what your partner needs and being able to honor that.
Julie (23:37): Well, I can take that a step further because it seems like everybody's read that book. However,
Aneta (23:42): Yeah.
Julie (23:43): I have a little different take on it.
Aneta (23:45): Okay.
Julie (23:45): I believe that people are controlled by, or let's say prefer to both give and receive love and care based on usually one of their three main senses that would be visual, auditory, or kinesthetic.
And which one you are has a huge impact on your communication. So, for example, someone who is visually oriented in their love strategy is what I call it. They're going to be very moved and very affected by what they see, what they literally see their partner doing.
So if you're visually oriented, it means a lot to you to literally see your partner take the clothes from the washer and the dryer or wipe the crumbs off the counter or leave a little note on your mirror, or it's what they do that has the most meaning. That's how they feel loved. So sure, you could talk to a visual person, and that would be nice, or give compliments.
You could hug and love on somebody and cuddle a visual person, but that's not going to have nearly as much meaning as what they see you do. My husband is visual, so there's an absolute reason why when I give him his plate of dinner, I say, here you go, honey. You can see it. Right.
Aneta (25:02): That's interesting.
Julie (25:04): So if you are auditory, like I am, words have huge meaning. We think in terms of words. A visual person, for example, if I said the word Ferrari, a visual person would instantly think of a beautiful little red Italian sports car. When I hear the word Ferrari, I literally see the silver emblem, the word Ferrari, that's on the bumper.
That's because I'm word-oriented. So to an auditory person, talking has great meaning. Words, compliments, conversation. All of that is huge. If you got sideways with me, do not come over and give me a hug like a kinesthetic person would want to do. And don't run around and just do stuff for me. Like empty the dishwasher and vacuum the rug. Don't do stuff.
You've got to come and talk to me, and we've got to talk out why we got sideways and what you think about it and how we can fix it. Conversation is going to fix it. If I'm visual and we're sideways, just do more things I like. I'll be fine. I'm sorry, as a visual person, if you do more things. Kinesthetic is the third one, and that's somebody, of course, who is very moved by touch or feel.
So if you're sideways with a kinesthetic person, don't walk up to them and talk to them and explain why you did or how sorry you are. You don't have to say a word. You just walk up and give them a big old warm hug, and they're fine. Because that's how they give and receive the highest form of love to them.
Aneta (26:39): How do you help your clients first understand whether they are the visual or the kinesthetic or the auditory, and then also to recognize it in their partner going forward?
Julie (26:50): Super easy. I give them a choice of three wonderful things that a visual, auditory, or kinesthetic person would do or say. And I say, I know those are all wonderful for your partner to do. Which one's your favorite? It's that simple.
Aneta (27:06): Amazing. This makes me think about how many couples are getting divorced and how many couples aren't even married separately. And the most common choice is irreconcilable differences, right? And you just think about how communication is such a strong part of a relationship, or it could be something that is the biggest detractor. Do you do premarital counseling or work? Yeah.
Julie (27:31): I do. And I think it's a great idea. Yes. Because here's a news flash for everybody. Whatever you're struggling with in your relationship or wherever the little hiccups and bumps are, they will not get better after you get married. So you are
Aneta (27:44): Absolutely.
Julie (27:45): Very wise to get all that stuff worked out beforehand.
Aneta (27:51): That's interesting. Do you ever partner with faith-based organizations who also might be doing some other type of counseling for couples before the...
Julie (27:58): I have always wanted to do that. In fact, most of the theory and methodology behind what I do is actually faith-based, so it's very consistent with what most faith providers would do. But I haven't done it formally.
Aneta (28:10): That just seems like a beautiful partnership there because there's so much about, of course, building the foundation of relationships that you can get through certain conversations with a faith-based leader. But also, what you've talked about and what you've shared today are really practical tools, things that people can start practicing and employing because we do have to practice these things, especially we need to relearn. Release other things, practice something new, practice listening when we want to speak, all of that. So I just thought that that could be a really beautiful partnership and something that actually I would imagine everybody could benefit from.
Julie (28:51): Well, that's kind of how I see it, but I'm biased.
Aneta (28:52): Yeah. So if folks are listening and they recognize that they could become better communicators or that maybe there have been some repeat challenges that they've experienced in their own relationship. And I didn't ask, we were talking about sort of romantic relationships or partnerships, but I imagine all of these skills are going to be helpful with communicating at work with your friends, with your siblings, with your parents, et cetera. is
Julie (29:18): With your kids.
Aneta (29:19): Your kids? Yes. What are the best ways that folks can reach out to you?
Julie (29:23): Very easy. All you have to do is go to my website, which is OutcomesOnly.com. There'll be ways to contact me there. And if you're interested in a program, we'll have a chat about that, and we'll have some sort of little screening appointment, and then we'll know what to do.
Aneta (29:38): That's perfect. And I know when I went to your website, you do have a book, an upcoming book; it's not out yet.
Julie (29:45): I do, yes, currently being edited. So in the coming months, I hope not too many will have the book out for publication, and it'll have all of the things I talked about today plus a whole lot more. And you can pre-register for the book when it comes out.
Aneta (30:01): That's fantastic. For those that know, maybe being fellow authors, we love those presales. So we really welcome the ability to do that. It's really helpful. And I ask everyone a final question, which is, what does it mean to you to live the width of your life, Julie?
Julie (30:17): That you don't let anything hold you back unnecessarily. We all have challenges, could be health challenges we can't do anything about or other limitations that just come and we have to deal with. But we place so many limitations on ourselves by not maybe getting feedback or learning or growing in the way that we could so that we could thrive. I think to live the width of your life, you have to be thriving and living your purpose in every possible way.
Aneta (30:44): Beautiful, I love it. Thank you for this wonderful conversation. I learned a lot.
Julie Nise (30:48): You are most welcome. Most welcome. Thank you. I loved it.
Aneta (30:52): And of course, we encourage everybody to come to your website to learn more. We'll include all the links in the show notes. And thanks for continuing to do the amazing work you're doing.
Julie (31:01): You bet. Great pleasure talking with you, Aneta. Take care.