Episode 161 transcript: Overcome Imposter Syndrome & Lead Authentically | Alice Mar Rocher
[00:00:00] Alice: I think knowing who you are is more important than knowing this bigger, larger thing that you're here to do, and the more that we know ourselves and take the time to really know who we are, then I think the values become a little bit, the purpose. So who I want to be in terms of integrity or in terms of impact or in terms of connection and service, and that can be played out with a lot of different purposes in all the different areas of our lives.
[00:00:35] Aneta: We often hear people wishing us a long, happy, and healthy life, but what if the length isn't what matters most? What if instead, it's the breath depth and purpose of each day that matters most? Welcome to the Live the Width of Your Life podcast. My name is Aneta Ardelian Kuzma, and join me weekly as I interview guests who have made changes in their own lives to live more fully with intention, gratitude, and joy. Be prepared to be inspired by their stories of how they shifted their mindset, took courageous action, and designed the life that they always wanted to live.
Welcome back to Live the Width of Your Life Podcast. My guest this week is Alice Mar Rocher, and she has a Master's degree in leadership Development from the University of Texas. She spent over two decades at the table with senior leaders, understanding what it takes to influence and lead with and without authority.
She is a certified coach, master practitioner, and trainer of neurolinguistic programming through the Association of Integrative Psychology. And she has these really cool, customized intensive breakout coaching and training programs that she uses with leaders and leveraging assessments and cutting-edge techniques.
And she talks about how she's able to get transformation and accelerated growth for her clients. We had such a great conversation, Alice's friend and someone that I just have such high respect for, and I love learning more about her practice and how she's able to help people continue to grow, personally and professionally. Take a listen.
Alice, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. We're finally here. We've been talking about doing this for so long.
[00:02:15] Alice: I know, thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:18] Aneta: I'm so excited because I always love to share a little bit about how I met my guests, and sometimes I'm meeting them for the first time.
But you and I are really fortunate. I've had an opportunity to spend some time together. So we were introduced by the wonderful Pat Swanick, and we'll have to let him know we mentioned him here, and Pat was like my boss's boss. When I was at KeyBank years ago, he was just one of those leaders who made such an impact on me.
And he had reached out on LinkedIn at one point. And we reconnected, and then he's, you know what, I know this wonderful woman. Her name is Alice and she's in Texas. And I really think you two should connect. Would you be open to connecting? I love that you're a part of my life, and then we get time to spend together.
[00:03:06] Alice: Yes, me too. And I worked for Pat at a corporation where he came in and just really took the helm in a time when the organization really needed it. And I got to work under Pat, and he was just one of those presidents, CEOs that I had such a great rapport with him and I respect him so much even today.
So I'm thankful that he connected us. And I think we have found a lot of things that we have in common. And, first and foremost, I think the immigrant story and also just our holistic approach to coaching and what we do and how we serve and how we moved from a corporate environment and being more traditional in leadership or senior leadership roles to just really having more alignment with our purpose for how we want to serve our customers. And yeah, it's been a great journey getting to know you, and I've been watching all the cool things that you do.
[00:03:57] Aneta: Absolutely. I feel the same way. And yeah, how long were you in corporate?
[00:04:03] Alice: So I was head of HR in midsize companies for probably a little over two decades. So about 20 years plus before I started my own business. And then I had a couple of international stints, which were super fun, just go and travel and learn a language. And serve with volunteering on one of the other stunts because I actually married a foreigner, and we went and had a time of work for him somewhere else in Europe. But about a little over 2 decades before starting my own business.
[00:04:37] Aneta: I want to hear about your international time because I love hearing people's unconventional stories, and I love when they're able to do things. But first, you were in the corporate world for a long time. When you started and you were younger, did you think that you were going to just retire from corporate? You're in, do the thing, go as high as you're going to go. What was your original plan? And why did you decide to leave?
[00:05:00] Alice: Interestingly, I think, like most young people, you have dreams and you know what you like and what you want to do, but you don't really know what that means. So I remember saying I want to work with people. I love people. I love human resources. I didn't really know what human resources was, but I'm one of the few people who went to school. I ended up getting my master's degree, like, all focused on communication and people and HR and leadership, and I ended up doing that for 20 years.
And yes, I think I thought that I would continue to work, and yes, retire at some point from corporate. I have to say, I have a very entrepreneurial and adventurous and globetrotting and that kind of thing side. So I guess I'm not really surprised that at some point I was like, yeah, I don't know what it's going to be, but it's not this.
And yeah, it's been a really wonderful transition, and it probably matches what are more the things that are my passion, which are psychology and supporting people to be successful. It's been a good journey, maybe not exactly what I imagined. Just not surprising.
[00:06:06] Aneta: Yes, I love that. Looking back, it's sometimes unbelievable to see the path and how things lined up. So tell me more, cause I know that you have a lot in terms of psychology and the background, even like NLP training. And so tell us a little bit more about neuro linguistic programming, like how you find it? And how are you able to leverage that with your clients? Because you work with a lot of executives, right?
[00:06:34] Alice: Yeah, right now I'm really working almost exclusively, not exactly, but a lot in the investment banking industry with fairly senior people. And that's such a privilege to work with them. And I love my clients very much. And the reason that I feel like the NLP, which I'll talk to you about in just a second, is very helpful is that I work with very successful, very driven people, and they know how to accomplish a goal. And we certainly work on goals, and we also work on specific skills that they need to acquire and to get themselves to the next level or to raise their level of executive presence, which is the umbrella niche, in some ways that I have.
And the psychology piece is really key. Not only that, again, I do have that holistic approach. So I found neuro linguistic programming because psychology was always just a passion of mine, and I found myself in these leadership roles doing a lot of coaching and helping leaders manage people and understand what motivates them, and thinking about themselves as leaders and how they wanted to show up and how they could have greater influence.
In their environment. And a lot of that is based on psychology. And so that's really what neuro linguistic programming is, it is a step, not away from, but after cognitive behavioral therapy, and it's based on the relationship between the conscious mind and the unconscious mind and communication between them.
And then furthermore using linguistics to communicate with others and influence and support good collaboration, and positive relationships and all the things that a really great leader knows how to master and it starts really with self awareness, and really creating just a very intimate, I'm going to say intimate, it sounds a strange to say that in this environment, relationship between your conscious mind and your unconscious mind and just a very supportive relationship.
And I found it because I wanted to add to my toolbox. So I knew all the corporate leadership things. And I knew how I'd been coaching people, and communication was, in a lot of ways, my area of specialization. And I wanted to add something of substance that was on the psychology side, and that's how I found neuro-linguistic programming.
What I love about it is that, in a way, it has a very deep impact, but it does that in a very non invasive way, I'm not a therapist, but I touch on some psychology that can have a deep impact on how we're showing up, our patterns and our mindset, and ultimately our effectiveness with other people, and so it has a lot of work or techniques that are pretty quick, pretty practical, and also, again, go deep on the mental and emotional patterns and supporting self awareness and also changing, shifting to things that are more supportive for our well being and also for our effectiveness in relationships.
[00:09:47] Aneta: Yeah, I feel like on and on. So I'll pause there. No, I think it's so important for people, maybe this is the first time they're hearing of it, or it sounds like a little bit, something like they wouldn't be comfortable. And for me, I'd just say it really is taking emotional intelligence to the next level.
I feel like emotional intelligence, people become more aware of how they respond, but don't necessarily go deep on subconscious thoughts, and also really address why we choose to respond the way that we do, and what we can do about it. So I feel like anytime I've done it, I've gone so much deeper, and it's just so helpful. So do you find that these investment bankers and other folks that you're working with are originally open to the idea of doing NLP? Or how do you frame it in a way that they're more open to experiencing it with you?
[00:10:41] Alice: A lot of the coaching that I do is very focused on executive presence, but there's the whole EQ side of things. And also something that I find foundational and really one of the first things I cover with clients is around just identity.
And our identity goes deep into our psychology and our mindset and all of those things. So, as far as the neuro linguistic programming goes, I definitely introduce a couple of things that are related to neuro linguistic programming and also specifically neuro linguistic programming.
So the whole idea of the unconscious mind is pretty normal and just mainstream now. We all know about psychology. We know unconscious things are going on, and bringing awareness is always going to be supportive. And so neuro neuro-linguistic program is just one way that we can address that part.
Also, just talking about the brain and neuroscience. And I think that's also somewhat mainstream that people understand. We understand some things about how our brains work. And therefore, that understanding can inform us to do things that support us, again. And all those things are intertwined, so I find them actually pretty open.
Senior leaders are really great at pattern recognition, and we do that in terms of looking at the bigger picture or having a vision, thinking about strategy, all the things that senior leaders do in their day-to-day. And it's more just about applying that for their leadership, their identity, their emotional intelligence, and leveraging all of those tools is very helpful and beneficial, and I find that people are very open to it and feel a pretty big shift, even with just little things that we can do along the way, while focusing on maybe some of the skills and other specifics related to executive presence or leadership skills.
[00:12:35] Aneta: Yeah, without breaking any sort of confidentiality, can you give us, like, some examples maybe of positive, powerful changes that people have been able to experience just through working with you?
[00:12:46] Alice: Yes, absolutely. So I would say 2 to 3, what I would call common experiences that people who are in that senior space or moving into that senior space are experiencing. The first one is, or maybe they're even related, the first one or two is just an identity question mark or what some people call imposter syndrome.
And I know that's something that all successful people, or many or most successful people who are doing big things and learning and growing, will experience. And so that is something that is also linked to what I would call the second common experience that holds people back is that they may be experiencing a certain level of, I'm going to put a label on it.
It doesn't have to be as strong as it sounds, but just anxiety. And that has a range between just having that normal anticipation and nervousness and being in these new settings and having to execute and lead larger groups of people or whatever the things are, right? All the way to, sometimes debilitating anxiety.
And a level of perfectionism and just so many things that can impact their ability to feel well, but also be successful in these roles. And so I have watched clients go from literally coming to sessions, so anxious, feeling so insecure or lack of confidence like literally in tears or telling me, they're not sleeping at night or whatever the things are to really coming through and using some of the work that I do with them and feeling so much more aligned and grounded and confident and able to Manage that anticipation and use it to support them. And that's a very freeing experience.
[00:14:37] Aneta: Yeah.
[00:14:38] Alice: People are always amazed at how quickly it happens and how dramatic the change feels.
[00:14:43] Aneta: Are most of your clients male?
[00:14:46] Alice: No, I would say maybe there is a majority, but I also have women, and part of that may also be because I do work in programs that are intended to be inclusive and for diversity or belonging, things like that. So that may be impacting the number of women. I do work in male-dominated industries. So in general, there are more men than women.
[00:15:11] Aneta: Right? What are some of the differences that you've noticed, if we can generalize? And we'll just say we're generalizing here because yeah, we talk a lot about women and leadership and some of the things that women go through, but I also have male clients, and I think it's important to talk about what they're experiencing because we don't always talk about it.
And acknowledging there's privilege and all of the things that we know, but what are some of the things that you've seen with male leaders as well, and maybe struggles with identity or with the impostor syndrome have you noticed any, maybe things that are universal for all of us as humans, and maybe some things that are slightly different in the way that they present themselves for males versus females.
[00:15:57] Alice: So statistically, women and people of color tend to experience imposter syndrome more than a male or a non-diverse person of either gender. However, I think that if I think about my clients, I don't really see a great deal of difference in terms of people experiencing that lack of confidence or that anxiety or those very normal and natural feelings when we're doing something that we haven't done before.
And we have a record of success, and it feels like a high-stakes situation for us to succeed. That's just being human. And so in that sense, I find that the experience is the same. It all comes down to just being human, and that uncertainty of wanting to be successful, but knowing that we have to grow and learn and be agile and flexible and deal with disruption and change. And basically, the thing that we're all doing right now in this environment feels like just constantly.
[00:17:08] Aneta: Yeah, I love that you say that. And I think maybe women identify with the term imposter syndrome more often. And you know that I really don't dislike that term. I just like taking on labels; I think it’s the way I use them.
I'm like, we can talk about the fact that you are not confident doing something you've never done before or that you're new at. Yeah. And that is normal, and that's okay. And we could talk about what you could do to gain more confidence or more experience. We can also talk about the fact that maybe you were promoted and you're surprised and you don't feel worthy of stepping into these big shoes.
And that's something we can also talk about, but I think there's a difference when you take a label on and you try to say, make this go away, because then it's the elephant in the room, and it never goes away, versus like acknowledging really what the issue is. And then you can put some clear-cut actions around it. Are there many men who say to you, I have imposter syndrome?
[00:18:07] Alice: I think it's become such a mainstream term. And I agree with you that the label is just, but it's okay. That's all it is. It's just a label. And I know I'm about to do a workshop at our community college here, where we break down what are the experiences of imposter syndrome.
And one of them I just talked about earlier is perfectionism. So I think the way it pops up is. Yes, they might use the term, but really, the commonality is just a lack of confidence or being a perfectionist or feeling that you might be discovered, that you don't know everything, or just the general fear of failure when trying something new. So I think those are probably the terms that people bring up or use.
[00:18:48] Aneta: Yeah. Do you find that a lot of people are still struggling with perfectionism?
[00:18:52] Alice: Absolutely. I'm a perfectionist myself, although I'm definitely a recovering perfectionist, but I recover, and I see that tendency in myself. I think that high achievers and people who are very driven have certain character qualities or characteristics, and personality and perfectionism often come along with that drive and that ambition that people have to be successful. And for those of us who are recovering, it's just, we like excellence, and that feels different.
At that point, we can say, okay, yeah, perfection maybe is not something that's actually going to help us to succeed. But having a standard of excellence is something that we can, healthily and appropriately, pursue in our work.
[00:19:38] Aneta: Yeah, I think the challenge with the perfectionism, too, and I know this is something I've been working on, even with myself and with my clients, is, sometimes, it's a result of tying worthiness to output, to achievement, to validation.
And that really is a worthiness issue. And it doesn't matter how perfect something is; that's actually not going to fill that hole. And so I think digging deep to go, if you really want to do really good quality work, and guess what, if there's a mistake, it doesn't impact how you feel about yourself.
It doesn't mean that you suck. It just means I forgot to do this. That's much healthier. And it's something to aspire to versus thinking that if it's perfect, that somehow your identity is better. You know what I mean? I think that's the challenge sometimes with the perfectionist, is going in and saying, What is this really that you're seeking?
[00:20:39] Alice: Yes, and you hit on something that I was about to talk about because it brought two things to mind. The first one is identity. Again, that's one of the foundational things that I work with clients on, and just really knowing who you are. Yeah. And what your values are, what you're here to do, and it sounds a little trendy to say, your purpose or your mission or your vision, but that is part of knowing and having that level of alignment.
Yeah. This is who I am. This is what I'm bringing in terms of value. This is what I want to do in the world. I want to show up as a leader. And this is the legacy that I want to have. What is it that I want to leave behind that has an impact in the long term after I'm gone, long after I'm gone, that has Aneta and Alice talking about Pat Swanick?
[00:21:29] Aneta: Exactly.
Yeah, legacy and impact and value.
[00:21:33] Alice: Exactly. And tied to that is just the mindset. And saying if I want to have this or achieve this purpose, that's all the way to the depth of legacy based on an identity that I've taken the time to really understand and value.
That means I'm going to be growing all the time. With that, as much as I want to have excellence. I may not always have success, but I will always learn and grow and become more of what I'm trying to become so that I can do that larger thing that is the reason I'm existing a little bit, I didn't phrase that correctly, but, kind of part of what I'm here to do in the world. Yeah.
[00:22:18] Aneta: Purpose doesn't have to be purpose with a big P. It doesn't have to be one thing. You could have a lot of different, smaller purposes. Sometimes we place such significance on I need to figure out my one thing. Do you find that people could have like multiple purposes, like that all kinds of align in the general theme, but maybe they don't figure out their one big purpose early on.
[00:22:45] Alice: Yeah. I think knowing who you are is more important than knowing this bigger, larger thing that you're here to do, and the more that we know ourselves and take the time to really know who we are, then I think the values become a little bit, the purpose. So who I want to be in terms of integrity or in terms of impact or in terms of connection and service, and that can be played out with a lot of different purposes in all the different areas of our lives. Does that make sense?
[00:23:24] Aneta: Oh yeah. I love that. Yeah. So tell me more about the work on identity, then, that you do. Walk us through maybe some of the steps or even things that if someone's listening and they say, I don't know, maybe I don't know who I am or what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, what are some of the things that you want to share?
[00:23:40] Alice: Sure. I take all of my clients through a pretty deep exercise around values. And really, what it does is in their lives, there have been times when they were just very engaged and motivated. And looking back on those times, what was it about that made you so engaged and so motivated? And that just very clearly identifies for you what your values are. And in that sense, how it is that you're wanting to make your contribution or impact in the world, since we're talking in the context of leadership.
The other piece is also understanding what I would call your deal breakers and your deal makers. So, for you to be able to fully give all of your energy to something, what are the things that need to be present, and what are the things that would cause you to leave? And I think that's a really great way to think about its values, but it's also its identity.
It's all wrapped up together in terms of who you are and who you're being and who you're growing into, because I think our identity and this is just such an amazing thing, because I've always said, either you're growing or you're dying. Our identity is evolving all the time. And so it's almost more like just getting in touch with where you are right now, but it's also maybe even identifying where that identity is going or allowing whatever the circumstances or choices that you've made or the environments or the things that you're growing into are also shaping that future.
Identity, and to be very comfortable with that. And this gets into even when I work with a lot of diverse people. So just even cultural things related to identity or multicultural identity, or even what I like to call it's more like a global citizen identity. And how that allows us to navigate things that might become internal conflicts in terms of values and identity and be able to step into all of those and feel comfortable and feel like all of those are authentically who we are different aspects of ourselves and of our identity that can all come together work in harmony again just bringing us a level of alignment that's just on a much deeper level which then allows us to show up with a strength of presence that it gives us a gravitas.
[00:26:10] Aneta: Yeah.
[00:26:10] Alice: And an attractive energy.
[00:26:14] Aneta: Yeah, people gravitate towards that. And I love this idea that our identity continues to shift because if we're growing, if we're learning, if we're living abroad, traveling, all of these things we are meant to change. We are meant to question to take on new beliefs, sometimes. So first of all, how did you end up living abroad? And tell me a little bit more about that story. And then how has that really impacted your identity, if at all? Yeah,
[00:26:44] Alice: Definitely, it has impacted my identity. It changed completely who I am and continues to do so the first International experience that I had. I was 18. I grew up with not a lot of money, but my mom had a friend who gifted her a trip to Italy. And you know how much I love Italy. So it was my first experience, and I just felt like it was a drug, like it was something I absolutely needed to pursue, but didn't have a lot of opportunity to do that until I was 29.
And I'd been married and working and doing the whole HR department head thing. And I don't know what specifically spurred that other than just this fascination with the world and exploring it. I literally just said to my husband at the time, I just want to quit my job, rent the house, sell everything, or put things in storage, whatever, and just go take a year.
And we did. And so spent that year in Europe, mostly did a little bit of travel outside of Europe, but mostly it was within Europe, and everything changed for me, just literally from spiritual aspects to how I saw the world, and yeah, just ideology. So many different things changed for me, and mostly it ended up just giving me an incredible amount of, I think, openness.
And even more of a growth mindset to just see how I could evolve and change and be really empowered in that, versus I think when we're younger, we might have a certain set of ideals and anything outside of that. We may allow that to be threatening, or we may resist.
Because it gets like destabilizing. And I think the way that it's shifted me and continues to do so is to embrace that and see that as just a very freeing way to live and be. And then I had an opportunity to do that again with my 2nd husband, who got a job in Europe.
He's actually French. We spent a couple of years there. My daughter was born there and had another very different, more family-type experience there. And really enjoyed that as well. And of course, I do all my solo traveling and I'm from Mexico, so I spend a lot of time there and just love exploring and.
Learning about new cultures and seeing how that impacts my ability to interact and connect with people in business. And especially being multilingual and having these opportunities, it's really expanded my ability to serve my clients and the kind of work that I get. So I feel very confident and comfortable being in these environments that are global. And feeling like I'm adding value based on those experiences and who I am, besides, of course, any business skills that I have or coaching talent.
[00:29:32] Aneta: Yeah, absolutely. So what was the difference for you between living in Italy and France? What did you learn differently in those two cultures?
[00:29:41] Alice: Lived in Belgium. That's where we were. We traveled to France and all over. I went to Italy lots of times as well, of course, and other parts of Europe. The difference between Italy and Belgium is pretty, it's pretty significant culturally. I enjoyed Belgium a lot. And, yeah, it was very different culturally.
So I would say that I probably, I was really happy that at that time I had been traveling for over a decade all over. And so I had that cultural agility, we'll say, to be able to relate with and be comfortable in whatever cultural setting and to acquire language and all that kind of stuff.
And the Belgians they're very funny. And it was a much more diverse experience living in Brussels, right? So the EU is there. It's just a very different cultural experience than what I'd had in Italy, which was a little bit more monocultural. There definitely was immigration, but it was.
A whole decade later, approximately. And I think that at the time I lived in Italy, there was much less migration. But just much more monocultural, and I don't know, Italy is just a place that I love. So I think emotionally, that was a very different experience, but it was all very enriching.
It all contributes to who I am and my ability to appreciate and connect with literally anybody. I think what is a real gift of travel, and especially if you travel alone, is that you almost don't even have to speak the language. There are these universal things about human beings that allow us to connect on that level.
And getting a little bit into not ethereal things, but just bigger things, I think that our world would be in such a better shape if we could all have those experiences. I think that all the different conflicts and just huge problems that we have globally would have a much better chance of being resolved. And for that, I'm an advocate of travel.
[00:31:36] Aneta: Absolutely. So why did you start your solo travels? Like, how did that come to be?
[00:31:42] Alice: Life, the universe. Source, whatever God just puts things in your path. And so what happened was when I was in Italy, this was not like an overnight thing, obviously, there was a history there, but I decided that I just was not happy in my marriage. And so I had time by myself, and I had planned this year-long adventure, originally with my husband at the time, and we spent some time apart there, and I was like, I didn't come all the way here to have this incredible experience and then not do it just because this separation is happening.
So I'm going to do it. And if I have to do it by myself, dang it, I'm going to do it by myself. And so that was my first experience. I started doing my planned itinerary on my own, and I found it, of course, a little scary. But also just incredibly empowering, and the experiences that I had and the people that I met, it just really, again, that was another thing that was a little addictive.
And so, since then, married or not married solo travel is just a part of who I am and what I do. And I love it. It's very sacred to me, and it's beautiful. I'll never stop.
[00:33:01] Aneta: I love that. But a few times I've been able to travel by myself, too. There's something so peaceful about not having to worry about anyone else but myself, which is rare.
It's very rare. And it's nice, and I feel like you can connect to other people, and you don't have to rely just on your family or whoever it is you're traveling with to make connections and just the most amazing connections and conversations and opportunities to experience things that just you wouldn't ordinarily.
And I feel like when people see people traveling alone. They're so welcoming, like people are always super curious, and I engage in the most amazing conversations.
[00:33:42] Alice: And the thing that really surprised me the most is that I've been able to benefit from, for now, whatever, 20 plus years or 30 years is there are so many of us out there traveling solo, people of all ages.
Of all walks of life, of all economic statuses, it's incredible how many of us are out there doing this. And so connecting with those people or people who even who are even traveling together, but it tends to be that you connect more with someone who is also on their own, is a really enriching experience.
And you get to see who they are and what their experiences are, which are completely different from yours, and you have friendships. Like I have met people who I'm still in touch with a couple of decades later.
[00:34:33] Aneta: Yeah.
[00:34:34] Alice: So that's really fun and enriching.
[00:34:37] Aneta: I think so. So, for those that might be interested in learning more about your services or how they could work with you, what is the best way that folks can find you?
[00:34:46] Alice: Yeah, so mostly I'm active on LinkedIn. I would say I obviously have a website and I have several products, but primarily I do have an online course that allows people to coach with me in a maybe a little bit more affordable way.
Mostly, I do a lot of coaching with senior leaders one-on-one and also with senior teams. So, using different tools and assessments can help their leadership development and workshops. And so, if people want to reach out to me, I'm happy to have those kinds of conversations, and otherwise, you can just follow me on LinkedIn.
[00:35:24] Aneta: It's wonderful. We'll include all the notes and all the links in the show notes. And I ask a final question of everyone, Alice, which is, what does it mean to you to live the width of your life?
[00:35:36] Alice: It's such a big question. I think to live the width of my life, it just has to be for me. This is not going to sound surprising, knowing who I am and what I'm here to do.
And to me, that also involves sharing whatever it is that I have to share with the world and having that connection with other people and serving and also being open to all of the growth of all of the experiences that I can have in all the areas of my life and having that level of courage and resilience to live as fully and as openly as possible and to bring as much light to the world along that path.
[00:36:20] Aneta: Beautiful. Alice, thank you so much for joining me today. I loved our conversation. Continued success. It was a privilege. Thank you.
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